RE: Russia and Ukraine
Yesterday at 9:33 am
(This post was last modified: Yesterday at 9:33 am by Belacqua.)
(Yesterday at 9:01 am)Angrboda Wrote:I didn't see his question. It's my rule that I don't respond to vulgarity, and he often writes that way.(Yesterday at 8:53 am)Belacqua Wrote: Oh, I see what you mean now.
But not only propagandists are interested in what they said. They made accurate predictions and warnings, and we failed to heed them. It's good to learn from history.
Thump already asked you for evidence that Europe or the U.S. was trying to bring Ukraine into NATO. Until you present some evidence, then their predictions of such remain unfulfilled.
To answer the question, here is a list from NATO's home page:
Quote:Evolution of NATO-Ukraine relations
~Dialogue and cooperation started when newly independent Ukraine joined the North Atlantic Cooperation Council (1991) and the Partnership for Peace programme (1994).
~Relations were strengthened with the signing of the 1997 Charter on a Distinctive Partnership, and further enhanced in 2009 with the Declaration to Complement the Charter, which reaffirmed the decision by NATO Leaders at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of NATO.
~The 1997 Charter established the NATO-Ukraine Commission as the main body responsible for developing the NATO-Ukraine relationship and for directing cooperative activities. In 2023, the Commission was replaced by the NATO-Ukraine Council, where Allies and Ukraine sit as equals. This change demonstrates the strengthening of political ties and Ukraine’s increasing integration with NATO.
"strengthening of political ties and Ukraine's increasing integration with NATO."
So in 2008 there was a summit at which "NATO leaders reaffirmed the decision that Ukraine will become a member." They never made it to full member status, but you'll notice that the NATO web site doesn't say that this plan has been abandoned.
The Ukrainian people have generally preferred neutrality, which is exactly what Kissinger said would be best.
The events of the 2014 putsch are much disputed. John McCain was there, and of course Victoria Nuland handed out cookies. There is a recorded phone call in which she is choosing who will be in the post-putsch government. You and I can't know exactly who was behind what; we can only read the various sources.
Ever since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, knowledgeable people have warned that aligning Ukraine too closely with the west, against Russia, would provoke conflict. George Kennan and many others knew this from the beginning. Obama said that Ukraine was not vital to US interests. But if you read Kissinger's editorial, it's clear why Russia sees it as vital.