RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
May 14, 2025 at 4:26 pm
(This post was last modified: May 14, 2025 at 4:28 pm by Alan V.)
(May 14, 2025 at 9:49 am)Alan V Wrote: I prefer "conditioning" to "brainwashing" or "indoctrination," since the methods are most often positive rewards for "right" answers and negative discouragement for "wrong" answers. That works great on kids, less great on teens.
However, propaganda also works by loaded terminology and thought-terminating cliches. Those control how people think, and they might correctly be called indoctrination.
(May 14, 2025 at 3:55 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:(May 14, 2025 at 1:11 pm)Alan V Wrote: What are "all the implications and inferences " which conditioning used to have which are now considered wrong? Which ones did you think I was implying?
The implications are those summed up in B.F. Skinner's quote, "Give me a child and I'll shape him into anything." And I think you're lightly dancing around that same idea. You don't want to use the word indoctrination but seem to think conditioning is a mechanism for achieving the same end—getting a child to adopt a set of beliefs uncritically.
All that people learn with conditioning is an association, whether it is with a stimulus or with an outcome. Behaviorists are notoriously unconcerned about things like beliefs; they treat the mind as a black box.
In any case, you were the person who brought up behaviorists, though it is interesting to hear about their over-simplifications. Since I never treated the mind as a black box myself, I can understand how acting "as-if something is true" can lead to certain beliefs later. "Fake it until you make it" works perfectly well in social situations, since that is exactly why so many beliefs are adopted -- to fit in to gain the rewards of a certain social group.
And as you will see from my above quote (bolded), I did not eliminate true indoctrination from the toolbox of the religious. It all depends on the specific people in question, which we would have to assess on a case-by-case basis.