(May 14, 2025 at 1:11 pm)Alan V Wrote: What are "all the implications and inferences " which conditioning used to have which are now considered wrong?  Which ones did you think I was implying?

The implications are those summed up in B.F. Skinner's quote, "Give me a child and I'll shape him into anything." And I think you're lightly dancing around that same idea. You don't want to use the word indoctrination but seem to think conditioning is a mechanism for achieving the same end—getting a child to adopt a set of beliefs uncritically. 

All that people learn with conditioning is an association, whether it is with a stimulus or with an outcome. Behaviorists are notoriously unconcerned about things like beliefs; they treat the mind as a black box.

(May 14, 2025 at 3:33 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I'll do as I wish on my own schedule. 

No, you did as I predicted—both times. Remember what I said about people being motivated to seek autonomy? Your autonomy was undermined when I said you should stop engaging with me (the very thing you intended to do.) And how do you recover a sense of autonomy after that? Well, by engaging and asserting that you can do as you wish.

Nope that's rubbish Johnny seeing evidence of his nonsense in nothing at all 

(May 14, 2025 at 1:11 pm)Alan V Wrote:

(May 14, 2025 at 10:03 am)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: I think it's good you don't use words like indoctrination. But keep in mind that conditioning comes from the defunct school of behaviorism. It is still a real aspect of learning, but all the implications and inferences that it used to have are wrong.

Operant conditioning is still taught in Psych 101, regardless of its defunct origins.

What are "all the implications and inferences " which conditioning used to have which are now considered wrong?  Which ones did you think I was implying?

Humans were designed by evolution to adapt to different environments, including social environments.  Conditioning is one way that is accomplished.  As people get older, they often learn beyond their early conditioning.  However, even though people can learn in different ways, their early social conditioning can also limit that additional learning.  Few people are perpetual students except in their particular specializations within their social groups.  This is clearly evidenced by the fact that most people adopt their parents' religions and politics.

Oh no he's throwing B.F Skinner at you ....lol

(May 14, 2025 at 9:49 am)Alan V Wrote: I prefer "conditioning" to "brainwashing" or "indoctrination," since the methods are most often positive rewards for "right" answers and negative discouragement for "wrong" answers.  That works great on kids, less great on teens.

However, propaganda also works by loaded terminology and thought-terminating cliches.  Those control how people think, and they might correctly be called indoctrination.

(May 14, 2025 at 3:55 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(May 14, 2025 at 1:11 pm)Alan V Wrote: What are "all the implications and inferences " which conditioning used to have which are now considered wrong?  Which ones did you think I was implying?

The implications are those summed up in B.F. Skinner's quote, "Give me a child and I'll shape him into anything." And I think you're lightly dancing around that same idea. You don't want to use the word indoctrination but seem to think conditioning is a mechanism for achieving the same end—getting a child to adopt a set of beliefs uncritically. 

All that people learn with conditioning is an association, whether it is with a stimulus or with an outcome. Behaviorists are notoriously unconcerned about things like beliefs; they treat the mind as a black box.

In any case, you were the person who brought up behaviorists, though it is interesting to hear about their over-simplifications.  Since I never treated the mind as a black box myself, I can understand how acting "as-if something is true" can lead to certain beliefs later.  "Fake it until you make it" works perfectly well in social situations, since that is exactly why so many beliefs are adopted -- to fit in to gain the rewards of a certain social group.

And as you will see from my above quote (bolded), I did not eliminate true indoctrination from the toolbox of the religious.  It all depends on the specific people in question, which we would have to assess on a case-by-case basis.

(May 14, 2025 at 9:05 am)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(May 14, 2025 at 8:54 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I do know that children are hyperabsorptive learning sponges who aim to emulate and thus please their parents.

Right; they are just sponges. They just absorb. They don't have any brains that can think and process information, or peers to socialize and develop with, and they certainly don't have genes that help determine who they will be. They exist solely to emulate and please their parents.

I'm always interested in those cases where people say something like "I was twelve when I figured out religion is all bunk." 

Clearly they had to learn some kind of evaluative standards in order to reach this conclusion. And those standards had to be learned from somewhere. So if the kids have been raised to be indoctrinated, the indoctrination has been far from complete. They've been learning things from other sources as well.

Largely, though, doesn't it seem like the options are multiple-choice, with maybe not that many choices available? 

I mean, when they reject their religious "indoctrination," they don't then enter some land of pure knowledge free of ideology. They largely select a different package of ideas that's been made available. It's choosing from a menu, with not that many options. 

(Like people show they are free and creative and unindoctrinated by shopping at Hot Topic instead of Forever 21.)

(May 14, 2025 at 4:26 pm)Alan V Wrote: However, propaganda also works by loaded terminology and thought-terminating cliches.  Those control how people think, and they might correctly be called indoctrination.

Are you saying that if you control language, you control thought? I did see this earlier, but I wanted to tackle conditioning first.

Hello, I am a Christian looking to have a conversation with an athesit for a school assignment. Just send your email and I'd love to chat!

(May 14, 2025 at 5:15 pm)Sarah Copper Wrote: Hello, I am a Christian looking to have a conversation with an athesit for a school assignment. Just send your email and I'd love to chat!

My email has been frozen, send me $40 dollars, and I can get it sorted, and then we can chat...

(May 14, 2025 at 8:33 am)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: What people usually mean by propaganda is largely nonsense. It is based on false and antiquated beliefs about the mind, like brainwashing or mind control.

Joseph Goebbels would like a word. If you're conflating propaganda with brainwashing and mind control it's no wonder that you're confused.