RE: Natural Selection Seems Insufficient
August 31, 2026 at 9:42 pm
(This post was last modified: August 31, 2026 at 9:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 31, 2026 at 9:12 pm)Jal Wrote:No, no no no. Consciousness could be innate and also be an epiphenomenon. As in it's something everything has, and maybe some things have it in more degrees or whatever terminology you like...but it doesn't do anything in the world. It's the last domino in it's branch with no dominoes to push and/or no way to push them. It would be very hard to explain that by way of natural selection. If it doesn't do anything how can it increase (or decrease) fitness?(August 31, 2026 at 8:16 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: @Jal
To continue with what may be or at least could be a useful discussion for you......when you use the phrase "in an atheistic reductionism" and then comment on hunger not actually doing anything...you're not referring to an atheistic reductionism. The term for that content group is epiphenomena. To continue using the domino analogy...and in the strongest terms....in that kind of world (or with that kind of mind) hunger is not in the chain of dominos but is a domino off to the side of the chain. It falls, but does not cause any other dominos to fall. They still fall how they were going to. Terrible...terrible place.
OFC, it might also be the case, as Angrboda pointed out, that hunger is in that chain rather than or in addition to being off to the side. Think of the domino falling off to the side that then starts a new cascade leading back to some prior point in the domino chain. If you think that's wholly implausible - then you would have a hard time understanding how feedback loops work. Thermostats, refrigerators, and air conditioners all rely on feedback loops. Cruise control, auto dimming mirrors, and fuel gauge lights. Coffee makers, toasters, and sump pumps. Your toilet. Street lights. Circuit breakers.
Obviously this does not explain the existence of consciousness....but I'll put it to you like this- If an "atheistic reductionist" world is - to you, a world where hunger and brains and all that seeming are just falling domino style feedback loops...like the ones in appliances..that's exactly the kind of world where natural selection has the greatest explanatory power. Where it would be maximally potent to possess those traits or structures.
Epiphonema versus reductionism? Potato-potaaaato as far as I'm concerned, for purposes of this discussion. Essentially emergent in both cases, rather than innate.
Quote:Feedback loops? Unless you can convince me they are driven by hunger, I can't see myself spending time to investigate the relevance.Hunger -is- a feedback loop... in any explanation where hunger causes action...whether consciousness is innate or not, whether gods exist or not.
Quote:In a domino-effect, hunger is superfluous. Which is not a realistic picture of the world.I find it hard to believe you've never seen dominoes branch off. What kind of psycho watches single lines of dominoes?
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