RE: Logic problem: The founding principles of the U.S. and Christianity.
February 13, 2012 at 2:09 am
Anyone want to hear the latest of fucktwittery that my anti separation of church and state friend has posted?
My Friend:the primary purpose of the religion part of the First Amendment was to prevent the government from financing and establishing The Church of America, similiar th the Church of England where everyone is taxed for the church. Of the approximately three hundred clergy in the Church of England in America between 1776 and 1783, over 80 percent in New England, New York, and New Jersey were loyalists. This is in contrast to the less than 23 percent loyalist clergy in the four southern colonies. Many Church of England clergy remained loyalists as they took their two ordination oaths very seriously. Anglican clergy were obliged to swear allegiance to the king as well as to pray for the king, the royal family, and the British Parliament. In general, loyalist clergy stayed by their oaths and prayed for the king or else suspended services. By the end of 1776, some Anglican churches were closing. Anglican priests held services in private homes or lay readers who were not bound by the oaths held morning and evening prayer. During 1775 and 1776, the Continental Congress had issued decrees ordering churches to fast and pray on behalf of the patriots. Starting July 4, 1776, Congress and several states passed laws making prayers for the king and British Parliament acts of treason. The patriot clergy in the South were quick to find reasons to transfer their oaths to the American cause and prayed for the success of the Revolution. One precedent was the transfer of oaths during the Glorious Revolution in England. Most of the patriot clergy in the south were able to keep their churches open and services continued.
Whole bunch of chaos went about during the period between 1776 and 1789 between the former Colonies and the Church of England. In 1789, representative clergy from nine dioceses met in Philadelphia to ratify the Church's initial constitution. The Episcopal Church was formally separated from the Church of England in 1789 so that clergy would not be required to accept the supremacy of the British monarch. They went about and set up a House of Bishop and a House of Laity along with a Presiding Bishop (with little or no authority over the dioceses) as head of the church.
Some people argue that the Founding Fathers used this as a model for creating the House of Representative, the Senate, and the Executive. Congress out of fear that somewhere down the road, the call for a State Religion would come up, and that is why the Freedom of Religion Clause was put into the First Amendment.
Through the years the government has let religious beliefs rule over government policies, The Conscientious Objector to serving in the military, the permission of Chaplaincy in the Military and Congress, opening the Supreme Court with prayer, providing Koran for detainees, etc.
There are certain restrictions on religion such a ban against polygamy, snake worshiping etc. But for the most part the government never tried to set standards for religion, up until the last 50 years with the banning of prayer in the schools, and other attacks by liberals.
Obamcare, with its regulation concerning contraceptives is a slap not just in the face of the Catholic Church, but all religious faiths. Remember the old story, when the Nazi came for all those people in my town, I was okay because I was not among them so I didn’t stand up, but when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me. This, what Obama is doing.
Me: In writing the constitution the founding father's recognized that they were writing not just for their time period but for the future -so that what they wrote would still be relevant in the future. Though the church of England scinario may have been the impitus for writing the first amendment, the founding father's recognized that many religions have a tendency to become state institutions. By making the statement that essentially says that government shall stay out of religion and religion stay out of state matters you fix the problem both in the present and in the future. When you interpret modern events you need to see it in terms of where the line between church and state exist. Both the state and the church have a nasty habit of overstepping their boundaries. Maintaining these boundaries maintains the freedom of both groups.
Mods don't kill me for a long section that was cut and pasted. I could not link to the web page that had this information.
My Friend:the primary purpose of the religion part of the First Amendment was to prevent the government from financing and establishing The Church of America, similiar th the Church of England where everyone is taxed for the church. Of the approximately three hundred clergy in the Church of England in America between 1776 and 1783, over 80 percent in New England, New York, and New Jersey were loyalists. This is in contrast to the less than 23 percent loyalist clergy in the four southern colonies. Many Church of England clergy remained loyalists as they took their two ordination oaths very seriously. Anglican clergy were obliged to swear allegiance to the king as well as to pray for the king, the royal family, and the British Parliament. In general, loyalist clergy stayed by their oaths and prayed for the king or else suspended services. By the end of 1776, some Anglican churches were closing. Anglican priests held services in private homes or lay readers who were not bound by the oaths held morning and evening prayer. During 1775 and 1776, the Continental Congress had issued decrees ordering churches to fast and pray on behalf of the patriots. Starting July 4, 1776, Congress and several states passed laws making prayers for the king and British Parliament acts of treason. The patriot clergy in the South were quick to find reasons to transfer their oaths to the American cause and prayed for the success of the Revolution. One precedent was the transfer of oaths during the Glorious Revolution in England. Most of the patriot clergy in the south were able to keep their churches open and services continued.
Whole bunch of chaos went about during the period between 1776 and 1789 between the former Colonies and the Church of England. In 1789, representative clergy from nine dioceses met in Philadelphia to ratify the Church's initial constitution. The Episcopal Church was formally separated from the Church of England in 1789 so that clergy would not be required to accept the supremacy of the British monarch. They went about and set up a House of Bishop and a House of Laity along with a Presiding Bishop (with little or no authority over the dioceses) as head of the church.
Some people argue that the Founding Fathers used this as a model for creating the House of Representative, the Senate, and the Executive. Congress out of fear that somewhere down the road, the call for a State Religion would come up, and that is why the Freedom of Religion Clause was put into the First Amendment.
Through the years the government has let religious beliefs rule over government policies, The Conscientious Objector to serving in the military, the permission of Chaplaincy in the Military and Congress, opening the Supreme Court with prayer, providing Koran for detainees, etc.
There are certain restrictions on religion such a ban against polygamy, snake worshiping etc. But for the most part the government never tried to set standards for religion, up until the last 50 years with the banning of prayer in the schools, and other attacks by liberals.
Obamcare, with its regulation concerning contraceptives is a slap not just in the face of the Catholic Church, but all religious faiths. Remember the old story, when the Nazi came for all those people in my town, I was okay because I was not among them so I didn’t stand up, but when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me. This, what Obama is doing.
Me: In writing the constitution the founding father's recognized that they were writing not just for their time period but for the future -so that what they wrote would still be relevant in the future. Though the church of England scinario may have been the impitus for writing the first amendment, the founding father's recognized that many religions have a tendency to become state institutions. By making the statement that essentially says that government shall stay out of religion and religion stay out of state matters you fix the problem both in the present and in the future. When you interpret modern events you need to see it in terms of where the line between church and state exist. Both the state and the church have a nasty habit of overstepping their boundaries. Maintaining these boundaries maintains the freedom of both groups.
Mods don't kill me for a long section that was cut and pasted. I could not link to the web page that had this information.
I have studied the Bible and the theology behind Christianity for many years. I have been to many churches. I have walked the depth and the breadth of the religion and, as a result of this, I have a lot of bullshit to scrape off the bottom of my shoes. ~Ziploc Surprise
