(August 4, 2009 at 11:35 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: metaphysics is bollocks ... I'm using straight logic!What you are doing is metaphysics, whether you like it or not.
(August 4, 2009 at 11:35 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: (1) If something has always existed then it has no beginning, no end and (2) therefore cannot have been created.You are wrong on both accounts.
(1): if something has always existed, that means that it has existed for the totality, indeed for the "all" of temporal reality. It does not mean that it has existed for an infinite amount of time, it is entirely irrespective of that question. If you want to go into that, then you must specifically demonstrate that temporal reality is somehow infinite.
(2): Even something which exists wholly apart from temporal reality (for instance angels) and therefore has not temporal beginning nor end, is not self-subsistent simply because it is nontemporal. Indeed you are confusing subsistence versus contingence with temporality, which is nonsensical.
(August 4, 2009 at 11:35 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Your view is insane .. you offer no evidence for your god yet you claim it is real!I do offer evidence for my God, many times in this thread. But whether I offer evidence for my God or not, is a completely different proposition than the one your question deals with, which is what createdness or uncreatedness means. And that question you have completely confused because you lack a basic understanding of what you are even saying and thinking.
(August 4, 2009 at 11:35 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: I repeat I am talking about the multiverse ... it is beyond time, beyond space! Your angels and gods are just fairy tales.The multiverse, if it means other universes which are temporally or spatially connected with our universe, are not other universes then, but a part of this one. The multiverse, if it means other universes which are not so connected with our universe, is an unverifiable dogma beyond all limits of reasonable hypothesis, beyond verifiability through empirical knowledge of what we do know exists - this universe.
In either case, and in any case, it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
The people who are the most bigoted are the people who have no convictions at all.
-G. K. Chesterton
-G. K. Chesterton