RE: I am a Catholic, ask me a question!
August 4, 2009 at 1:06 pm
(This post was last modified: August 4, 2009 at 1:14 pm by Jon Paul.)
(August 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm)chatpilot Wrote: Okay Jon Paul lets try something else:God created Adam and Eve and they in turn committed the first act of disobedience to God by eating of the forbidden fruit.The fact that they were beguiled into doing so is irrelevant.This in turn pissed off God so much that he made all of humanity responsible for the sin of two people we have never met and who supposedly existed about 7,000 years ago give or take a few yearsWell, this is a typical Protestant viewpoint. But it has nothing to do with what I believe. For one, the thing about everything just being about "God being pissed off", rather than about humanitys own spiritual death by voluntary separation from God. For another, the talk of "7000 years ago". Typical "literalist" interpretation, lacking everything of exegesis that goes beyond the literality of expressions such as "a thousand years" or six days.
(August 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm)chatpilot Wrote: I have a serious problem with this;firstly I don't think it's fair that we should all be held accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve.That is like punishing someones entire family for a crime that one of their members committed it's not fair.First of all, it's not God who is "so pissed off that he made all of humanity responsible for the sins of two people". It is humanity itself, which separated itself from God, which rejected it's gift of supernatural (above - nature) destiny, with it's own free will that God had given it. You don't need to know anything more to understand the point of the story.
(August 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm)chatpilot Wrote: I have a serious problem with this;firstly I don't think it's fair that we should all be held accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve.That is like punishing someones entire family for a crime that one of their members committed it's not fair.We are not "held accountable", not by God certainly, for the sins of others. We will be judged according to what we have done with the light we have received, and not according to what others have done.
But the problem lies in the approach. You are focusing on guilt here, and not the spiritual status of humanity, which is what we need to focus on if we want to see the point of the story.
Rather than a matter of guilt, Adam and Eve and their rejection of God is a matter of the status of humanity: separation from God by voluntary rejection of Him and His graces.
(August 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm)chatpilot Wrote: Secondly why does God just not forgive mankind since he is all powerful he can do anything.God does forgive us, and God forgave Adam and Eve, but they rejected him, and they rejected his forgiveness.
God does not force us to love him. He loves us no matter what we do, and he wants us to love him. But love doesn't work by force. Every man is born with the right to death and the right to hell.
(August 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm)chatpilot Wrote: On a side note none of those verses speak or even allude to a transitional state after death.The only way they do is if you read into it or interpret more than is written in them.The first qoutes about settling your debts or differences with your adversary is not about the afterlife if put in its proper context.Kudos for the the transliteral word play though!No. He is using parables to teach a greater truth. As the parable of the unforgiving servant, one of the first verses mentioned:
Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. (Jesus says) So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart, in an obvious reference to justice in the afterlife.
Quote:Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.And even then, you ignored all the other verses.
The people who are the most bigoted are the people who have no convictions at all.
-G. K. Chesterton
-G. K. Chesterton