(August 4, 2009 at 9:51 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote:

(August 4, 2009 at 8:53 am)Jon Paul Wrote: God was never created, but we are talking about Christ who is both God and Man, both created and uncreated.

The universe (the wider universe or multiverse) was never created, has always existed

Whether something has always existed or not, says nothing about whether it was created or not.

It only describes for how much of the duration of the temporal reality it is describing it has existed. And since the universe embodies temporal reality, the universe has indeed "always existed", since always denotes temporal existence, and universe means the spatiotemporal reality in its entirity (otherwise we are not talking about the universe .. but about subdivisions / "multiverses" perhaps).

Angels are outside the temporal realm, but that does not make them uncreated.

Indeed, the only fact that tells us that we and our world and universe is created, is that it exists (is actual potentiality, or active potency) at all.

(August 4, 2009 at 10:27 am)Jon Paul Wrote:

(August 4, 2009 at 9:51 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: The universe (the wider universe or multiverse) was never created, has always existed

Whether something has always existed or not, says nothing about whether it was created or not.

Um ... if something has ALWAYS existed then it can't have been created ... doh!!!!

(August 4, 2009 at 10:27 am)Jon Paul Wrote: It only describes for how much of the duration of the temporal reality it is describing it has existed. And since the universe embodies temporal reality, the universe has indeed "always existed", since always denotes temporal existence, and universe means the spatiotemporal reality in its entirity (otherwise we are not talking about the universe .. there can never be "two universes", since universe means everything).

I specifically stated THE MULTIVERSE ... SLAP!!!!!

(August 4, 2009 at 10:27 am)Jon Paul Wrote: Angels are outside the temporal realm, but that does not make them uncreated.

Nope ... the multiverse is the sum totality of everything!

(August 4, 2009 at 10:27 am)Jon Paul Wrote: Indeed, the only fact that tells us that we and our world and universe is created, is that it exists (is actual potentiality, or active potency) at all.

Bollocks!!!!

Kyu

(August 4, 2009 at 10:34 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Um ... if something has ALWAYS existed then it can't have been created ... doh!!!!

And why is that the case, in your little metaphysical synthesis, if I might ask?

In my view of the universe, it has indeed always existed in all time, and it is certainly created - because everything which exists apart from God is created by God.

Whether the subject exists in time, and in all time, or not, makes no difference to whether the subject is created or not. For instance, the universe is the totality of temporal reality - therefore it has existed in all times. A small part of the universe, like me, is not the totality of spatial or temporal reality, and therefore I do not exist in all time. To the contrary example, angels are wholly apart from that spatiotemporal reality, but again, that is something which makes no difference to their createdness.

There is no need to pray to the saints for intercession,that is what Christ came for.In fact, his whole mission was to restore sinful mankind back into the graces of God the father.

Hebrews 9:11-15
11.But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12.Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13.For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14.How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15.And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

There is no need for so called purification after death and no need for this transitory state called purgatory.According to the scriptures Christ did all of that with his death on the cross.Another thing is that if God the father,Christ the son,and the Holy spirit were all God then who was Christ praying to,himself?This makes your biblical God kind of schizophrenic dont you think?I've always thought that the only way to make sense of the whole thing was to accept a trinity of three distinct beings and consider them one only in the sense of plan and purpose each one having his own part to play in the overall scheme of things.

(August 4, 2009 at 11:06 am)chatpilot Wrote: There is no need to pray to the saints for intercession,that is what Christ came for.

As I've already said, Christ did not just come for mere intercession. That is not the orthodox/Nicene viewpoint. He came as God incarnate, the union between man and God, to give us the spiritual restitution of human nature through his joining of humanity and divinity, repairing the damage and divinising and sanctifying those who would follow him as Lord.

(August 4, 2009 at 11:06 am)chatpilot Wrote: In fact, his whole mission was to restore sinful mankind back into the graces of God the father

His mission was not that of a mere man; but that of both God and Man, joining the two natures and repairing the fallen human nature and thus becoming the New Adam, the New Creation, more perfectly human than anyone with a fallen human nature, which he repairs and divinises through grace.

(August 4, 2009 at 11:06 am)chatpilot Wrote: There is no need for so called purification after death and no need for this transitory state called purgatory.According to the scriptures Christ did all of that with his death on the cross.

That is not "according to scriptures". You are just repeating your indoctrinated American Protestant viewpoint. I have already provided extensive and exhaustive scriptural evidence for a purifying state in the afterlife which is neither finally heaven nor hell.

(August 4, 2009 at 11:06 am)chatpilot Wrote: Another thing is that if God the father,Christ the son,and the Holy spirit were all God then who was Christ praying to,himself?

The Father is not the Son, so no, he is not praying to himself. Christ, as God incarnate being fully human, would of course pray to God, his God, God the Father.

(August 4, 2009 at 10:46 am)Jon Paul Wrote:

(August 4, 2009 at 10:34 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Um ... if something has ALWAYS existed then it can't have been created ... doh!!!!

And why is that the case, in your little metaphysical synthesis, if I might ask?

metaphysics is bollocks ... I'm using straight logic! If something has always existed then it has no beginning, no end and therefore cannot have been created.

(August 4, 2009 at 10:46 am)Jon Paul Wrote: In my view of the universe, it has indeed always existed in all time, and it is certainly created - because everything which exists apart from God is created by God.

Your view is insane .. you offer no evidence for your god yet you claim it is real! At least the idea of a multiverse is viewed as a realistic possibility by scientists.

(August 4, 2009 at 10:46 am)Jon Paul Wrote: Whether the subject exists in time, and in all time, or not, makes no difference to whether the subject is created or not. For instance, the universe is the totality of temporal reality - therefore it has existed in all times. A small part of the universe, like me, is not the totality of spatial or temporal reality, and therefore I do not exist in all time. To the contrary example, angels are wholly apart from that spatiotemporal reality, but again, that is something which makes no difference to their createdness.

I repeat I am talking about the multiverse ... it is beyond time, beyond space! Your angels and gods are just fairy tales.

Kyu

(August 4, 2009 at 11:35 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: metaphysics is bollocks ... I'm using straight logic!

What you are doing is metaphysics, whether you like it or not.

(August 4, 2009 at 11:35 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: (1) If something has always existed then it has no beginning, no end and (2) therefore cannot have been created.

You are wrong on both accounts.

(1): if something has always existed, that means that it has existed for the totality, indeed for the "all" of temporal reality. It does not mean that it has existed for an infinite amount of time, it is entirely irrespective of that question. If you want to go into that, then you must specifically demonstrate that temporal reality is somehow infinite.

(2): Even something which exists wholly apart from temporal reality (for instance angels) and therefore has not temporal beginning nor end, is not self-subsistent simply because it is nontemporal. Indeed you are confusing subsistence versus contingence with temporality, which is nonsensical.

(August 4, 2009 at 11:35 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Your view is insane .. you offer no evidence for your god yet you claim it is real!

I do offer evidence for my God, many times in this thread. But whether I offer evidence for my God or not, is a completely different proposition than the one your question deals with, which is what createdness or uncreatedness means. And that question you have completely confused because you lack a basic understanding of what you are even saying and thinking.

(August 4, 2009 at 11:35 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: I repeat I am talking about the multiverse ... it is beyond time, beyond space! Your angels and gods are just fairy tales.

The multiverse, if it means other universes which are temporally or spatially connected with our universe, are not other universes then, but a part of this one. The multiverse, if it means other universes which are not so connected with our universe, is an unverifiable dogma beyond all limits of reasonable hypothesis, beyond verifiability through empirical knowledge of what we do know exists - this universe.

In either case, and in any case, it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Okay Jon Paul lets try something else:God created Adam and Eve and they in turn committed the first act of disobedience to God by eating of the forbidden fruit.The fact that they were beguiled into doing so is irrelevant.This in turn pissed off God so much that he made all of humanity responsible for the sin of two people we have never met and who supposedly existed about 7,000 years ago give or take a few years.Then he institutes the whole ritual of animal sacrifices to atone for the sins of mankind.But those sacrifices were not sufficient they just covered or hid the sin from God so he had to send his son to die on the cross and shed his untainted blood for mankind so that it can take away our sins altogether.In order for this to be valid though we have to accept Jesus as Lord and live to the best of our abilities by Gods statutes and commands.

I have a serious problem with this;firstly I don't think it's fair that we should all be held accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve.That is like punishing someones entire family for a crime that one of their members committed it's not fair.Secondly why does God just not forgive mankind since he is all powerful he can do anything.Forgiveness is a concious decision and I am sure on God's part it wont take much.Instead of going through this long and drawn out roundabout way by saying that without the shedding of blood there is no remmission of sin just equates the biblical god with all those savage gods of the primitives such as the Incas and Mayas and many of the tribal religions.The whole story in my mind makes no sense at all.

You said: I have already provided extensive and exhaustive scriptural evidence for a purifying state in the afterlife which is neither finally heaven nor hell.
On a side note none of those verses speak or even allude to a transitional state after death.The only way they do is if you read into it or interpret more than is written in them.The first qoutes about settling your debts or differences with your adversary is not about the afterlife if put in its proper context.Kudos for the the transliteral word play though!

(August 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm)chatpilot Wrote: Okay Jon Paul lets try something else:God created Adam and Eve and they in turn committed the first act of disobedience to God by eating of the forbidden fruit.The fact that they were beguiled into doing so is irrelevant.This in turn pissed off God so much that he made all of humanity responsible for the sin of two people we have never met and who supposedly existed about 7,000 years ago give or take a few years

Well, this is a typical Protestant viewpoint. But it has nothing to do with what I believe. For one, the thing about everything just being about "God being pissed off", rather than about humanitys own spiritual death by voluntary separation from God. For another, the talk of "7000 years ago". Typical "literalist" interpretation, lacking everything of exegesis that goes beyond the literality of expressions such as "a thousand years" or six days.

(August 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm)chatpilot Wrote: I have a serious problem with this;firstly I don't think it's fair that we should all be held accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve.That is like punishing someones entire family for a crime that one of their members committed it's not fair.

First of all, it's not God who is "so pissed off that he made all of humanity responsible for the sins of two people". It is humanity itself, which separated itself from God, which rejected it's gift of supernatural (above - nature) destiny, with it's own free will that God had given it. You don't need to know anything more to understand the point of the story.

(August 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm)chatpilot Wrote: I have a serious problem with this;firstly I don't think it's fair that we should all be held accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve.That is like punishing someones entire family for a crime that one of their members committed it's not fair.

We are not "held accountable", not by God certainly, for the sins of others. We will be judged according to what we have done with the light we have received, and not according to what others have done.

But the problem lies in the approach. You are focusing on guilt here, and not the spiritual status of humanity, which is what we need to focus on if we want to see the point of the story.

Rather than a matter of guilt, Adam and Eve and their rejection of God is a matter of the status of humanity: separation from God by voluntary rejection of Him and His graces.

(August 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm)chatpilot Wrote: Secondly why does God just not forgive mankind since he is all powerful he can do anything.

God does forgive us, and God forgave Adam and Eve, but they rejected him, and they rejected his forgiveness.

God does not force us to love him. He loves us no matter what we do, and he wants us to love him. But love doesn't work by force. Every man is born with the right to death and the right to hell.

(August 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm)chatpilot Wrote: On a side note none of those verses speak or even allude to a transitional state after death.The only way they do is if you read into it or interpret more than is written in them.The first qoutes about settling your debts or differences with your adversary is not about the afterlife if put in its proper context.Kudos for the the transliteral word play though!

No. He is using parables to teach a greater truth. As the parable of the unforgiving servant, one of the first verses mentioned:

Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. (Jesus says) So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart, in an obvious reference to justice in the afterlife.

Quote:Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

And even then, you ignored all the other verses.

(August 4, 2009 at 1:06 pm)Jon Paul Wrote: Well, this is a typical Protestant viewpoint. But it has nothing to do with what I believe. For one, the thing about everything just being about "God being pissed off", rather than about humanitys own spiritual death by voluntary separation from God. For another, the talk of "7000 years ago". Typical "literalist" interpretation, lacking everything of exegesis that goes beyond the literality of expressions such as "a thousand years" or six days.

I resemble that remark!! Well I'm a protestant, but I believe the same as you John Paul. I think you'll find that's more atheist reasoning than Christian of any flavour.

Personally I find it hard to believe chatpilots claims of belief.

Carry on gentlemen...