I am an orthodox Christian, ask me a question!

[Kyuuketsuki]

metaphysics is bollocks ... I'm using straight logic!

What you are doing is metaphysics, whether you like it or not.

No, it's not ... whether you claim it is or not!

If something has always existed then it has no beginning, no end and (2) therefore cannot have been created.

You are wrong on both accounts.

No, I'm not ... if something was created then it was created at some temporal (or supra-temporal) juncture) therefore it has a beginning (either in a temporal or supra-temporal sense). IT alsoi has an end even if that end is in temporal (or supra-temporal) motion (extending).

if something has always existed, that means that it has existed for the totality, indeed for the "all" of temporal reality. It does not mean that it has existed for an infinite amount of time, it is entirely irrespective of that question. If you want to go into that, then you must specifically demonstrate that temporal reality is somehow infinite.

And again you ignore the fact that I SPECIFICALLY stated a multiverse where I am referring to its equivalent of time i.e. super-temporal concepts.

Even something which exists wholly apart from temporal reality (for instance angels) and therefore has not temporal beginning nor end, is not self-subsistent simply because it is nontemporal. Indeed you are confusing subsistence versus contingence with temporality, which is nonsensical.

No ... I am raising a reasoned argument against your fairy tale bollocks!

Your view is insane .. you offer no evidence for your god yet you claim it is real!

I do offer evidence for my God, many times in this thread. But whether I offer evidence for my God or not, is a completely different proposition than the one your question deals with, which is what createdness or uncreatedness means. And that question you have completely confused because you lack a basic understanding of what you are even saying and thinking.

You have NOT offered a single validatable piece of evidence for your god or any other. Created means it started, simple as that ... if it started it has a beginning, a point which can be identified that the creation event occurred. If you can claim your god has always existed then I am EQUALLY entitled to claim the multiverse has always existed ... do you get it yet?

I repeat I am talking about the multiverse ... it is beyond time, beyond space! Your angels and gods are just fairy tales.

The multiverse, if it means other universes which are temporally or spatially connected with our universe, are not other universes then, but a part of this one. The multiverse, if it means other universes which are not so connected with our universe, is an unverifiable dogma beyond all limits of reasonable hypothesis, beyond verifiability through empirical knowledge of what we do know exists - this universe.

The multiverse refers to the environment within which all other universes exist, it is understood to pre-exist this universe and all others (IOW to have always existed) and to post exist them all. It has no beginning and no end and, as such, cannot have been "created" by any other thing.

In either case, and in any case, it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

No it's not ... it is relevant because the multiverse, having always existed, directly opposes your claim to the ever-exiting god. But then I see you are dismissing my argument purely because you are UNABLE to deal with it.

Kyu