(August 4, 2009 at 5:12 pm)Jon Paul Wrote:(August 4, 2009 at 4:53 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: You think I give a shit?I don't care if you do. As I've said, you can entertain the views you want to.
Thank you, thank you oh great and wise one!
And BTW, you DO care ... if you didn't you wouldn't bother arguing ... you are being disingenuous!
(August 4, 2009 at 4:53 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote:(August 4, 2009 at 5:12 pm)Jon Paul Wrote: [quote='Kyuuketsuki' pid='24716' dateline='1249419223']Yes it does ... if something is created it means it has to have been started.You are repeating this without substantiating it. The substantiation is nowhere to be found in my view and definition of what "creation" even means. And creation, in my definition, does not entail temporality. I'm not going to continue this discussion if all you have is repetitions of the same unsubstantiated nonsense building on heresies which I don't subscribe to.
My argument is based on logic and reason but if I am (and I don't accept that as so) then it is no more than you are doing ... you too are claiming things without substantiation.
(August 4, 2009 at 5:12 pm)Jon Paul Wrote:(August 4, 2009 at 4:53 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: If you claim your god created the universe/multiverse then you MUST be claiming it "pre-existed" itNo, I don't, because "pre-existed" is another temporal denotation which implies temporal existence, and God is wholly transcendent to temporality.
Yes you do, implicitly. And I repeat that I am talking supra temporality not universal temporality.
(August 4, 2009 at 5:12 pm)Jon Paul Wrote: Again, you screwed up.
No, yet again you are being disingenuous to constantly ignore the fact that I am referring to whatever passes for "time" in the multiverse.
(August 4, 2009 at 5:12 pm)Jon Paul Wrote:(August 4, 2009 at 4:53 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Also, if you god didn't always exist, then what created it?My God did always exist; but that is not my central claim. Because the universe also always existed, in the sense of embodying the total extense of temporal reality. So what separates God and the universe is not whether they have existed always and for the totality of temporal reality. If that was my claim, then there would be no difference from God and the universe.
In which case my claim that the multiverse ahs always existed has EQUAL (arguably more since it is a seriously entertained scientific hypothesis) merit. If the multiverse is all there is, all there ever was and all there ever will be then your god is a part of it and cannot be its creator.
(August 4, 2009 at 5:12 pm)Jon Paul Wrote: What separates them is that the universe is temporal, and God is not.
And that is just fairytale wishful thinking for which you have provided no (ZERO, NADA, ZIP) validatable evidence.
Kyu
The people who are the most bigoted are the people who have no convictions at all.
-G. K. Chesterton
-G. K. Chesterton
