Physical laws are limited to this universe.... so the universe could have been "caused" by something that is not limited to physical laws. So by admitting that you could argue things pop in and out of existence for no reason outside of the universe?
If that is true then how is the idea of God anymore likely then random particles just poofing into existence? You cannot throw out all the physical laws and still argue that cause and effect is necessary to begin the universe. I will agree with you on this though, there is no way that the universe IN ITS PRESENT FORM could have always existed.
However can it be proven that energy has not always existed? The law of the conservation of energy is a scientific law which is based in the physical universe so you could argue outside of the universe that it doesn't apply. I don't really see how that makes God anymore likely than some random chaotic quantum fluctuation though. The problem is you and I operate in a realm controlled by physical laws that don't allow for such things as gravity randomly not working on earth.
How do I know this? Have you ever jumped off something and floated up then down, then side to side, then up again? We operate in a universe which, for whatever reason, has consistent results with many physical laws such as gravity. That does not mean these laws are consistent in every corner of the universe but at least in this corner and many others it looks like it is.
I am also not one of those atheists who has studied out evolution enough to stake everything in it either. Is there some kind of deity that caused the universe? I think it is possible but again no more provable than a random quantum fluctuation at this point. That may change one day but for the present time whenever we start discussing "pre-universe" ideas we are participating in a delightful session of mental masturbation.
Everyone engaged in this part of the discussion can throw out abstract ideas and theories but we cannot prove anything about pre-universe right now. Unless I am missing something of course we are spitting out currently unprovable theories both on the atheistic side and theistic side. These discussions always end up in both sides screaming "WELL MY SIDE IS POSSIBLE AND I DON'T THINK YOURS IS!" Problem is.... PROOF.... I cannot PROVE that quantum fluctuations or some other random thing caused the universe anymore than someone can prove God did.
It is not something we can currently measure to the point of it really becoming a pointless back and forth that gets us no where. Do I accept that a quantum fluctuation started the universe? No I do not because I have not seen evidence that makes me think it is a certainty. Do I accept that a God started the universe? No I do not because I have not seen evidence that makes me think it is a certainty.
If that is true then how is the idea of God anymore likely then random particles just poofing into existence? You cannot throw out all the physical laws and still argue that cause and effect is necessary to begin the universe. I will agree with you on this though, there is no way that the universe IN ITS PRESENT FORM could have always existed.
However can it be proven that energy has not always existed? The law of the conservation of energy is a scientific law which is based in the physical universe so you could argue outside of the universe that it doesn't apply. I don't really see how that makes God anymore likely than some random chaotic quantum fluctuation though. The problem is you and I operate in a realm controlled by physical laws that don't allow for such things as gravity randomly not working on earth.
How do I know this? Have you ever jumped off something and floated up then down, then side to side, then up again? We operate in a universe which, for whatever reason, has consistent results with many physical laws such as gravity. That does not mean these laws are consistent in every corner of the universe but at least in this corner and many others it looks like it is.
I am also not one of those atheists who has studied out evolution enough to stake everything in it either. Is there some kind of deity that caused the universe? I think it is possible but again no more provable than a random quantum fluctuation at this point. That may change one day but for the present time whenever we start discussing "pre-universe" ideas we are participating in a delightful session of mental masturbation.
Everyone engaged in this part of the discussion can throw out abstract ideas and theories but we cannot prove anything about pre-universe right now. Unless I am missing something of course we are spitting out currently unprovable theories both on the atheistic side and theistic side. These discussions always end up in both sides screaming "WELL MY SIDE IS POSSIBLE AND I DON'T THINK YOURS IS!" Problem is.... PROOF.... I cannot PROVE that quantum fluctuations or some other random thing caused the universe anymore than someone can prove God did.
It is not something we can currently measure to the point of it really becoming a pointless back and forth that gets us no where. Do I accept that a quantum fluctuation started the universe? No I do not because I have not seen evidence that makes me think it is a certainty. Do I accept that a God started the universe? No I do not because I have not seen evidence that makes me think it is a certainty.
