Nobody else want a go at this? okay, I'll do it
Off the bat I'd like to let you know that I agree with you, there is good reasoning and bad reasoning. However, that said, to say that there is 'me' logic and 'not me' logic is complete bullshit, show me a logical system whereby a set of logical arguments are presented in the 'me' category and one is not. The closest I could come to this is subjectivism and objectivism, there is nothing self-interested about this. You can't simply assert that non-believers are self-obsessed assholes simply because that's what you believe without rational backing.
next,
more self-promoting, unfounded nonsense. What answer are you on about? what grounds do you have to generalise that everyone in one group has some innate selfish/less-ness to them? that is just ignorant. Furthermore, Nothing about a non-believer implies that they're always considering themselves, if anything it is the other way around, the believer is conforming to social and cultural pressures, the non-believer has to declare their position against the consensus, this is standing against the tide and so your analogy is untrue. Moreover, in your last argument you claimed that you 'weren't alone' whereas we were individualistic, make your mind up, you're pushing a contradictory argument here. Plus, bible quotes aren't worth their pixels on here, or anywhere that considers real evidence, stop quoting. Finally, 'others' needs'? are you joking? believers have been discriminating and condemning for thousands of years whilst nonbelievers have constantly acted in a pacifist-like manner even during condemnation. I suppose the murder of others for different beliefs is caring for others, or perhaps you forget about the many crusades? That is such an insensitive, fundamentalist thing to say, you have no proof for that and the atheist/agnostic community is one of the most peaceful, progressive communities in the world you ignoramus.
These are bible passages, they cannot be held to be true because they were written by people who never stopped preaching to actually think of backing up their bullshit claims with logic or evidence. Your entire argument is simply stupid and nothing you say here even amounts to the kind of good reasoning you suspect you had, your arguments are simply not arguments in the logical sense and rely on generalisations, offensive statements and a 'holier than thou' attitude which is completely conceited and unjustified, how about you accept what logic is first then come back and we can talk god? Fuck you and goodbye. (P.s- I was having homosexual sex whilst shaving my beard yesterday whilst blaspheming and disrespecting my parents, all the while I was cutting an upside down cross into my skin and using such rude words as bugger and whore. However, whilst this was occuring I was listening to rock and roll music, reading Sartre, I then proceeded to steal his wallet, fuck his wife before marriage and abort a baby with a falcon punch. I tried not to sin but it didn't work.)
(July 23, 2012 at 1:59 pm)Undeceived Wrote: One can find 'logical' reasons for anything. The trouble lies in finding the right logic. For simplicity, let's narrow it down to two: believing in Christ and not believing in Christ. Each uses a different starting point. A nonbeliever uses "me" logic--self-interestedness. A believer uses selflessness logic.
Off the bat I'd like to let you know that I agree with you, there is good reasoning and bad reasoning. However, that said, to say that there is 'me' logic and 'not me' logic is complete bullshit, show me a logical system whereby a set of logical arguments are presented in the 'me' category and one is not. The closest I could come to this is subjectivism and objectivism, there is nothing self-interested about this. You can't simply assert that non-believers are self-obsessed assholes simply because that's what you believe without rational backing.
next,
Quote:A nonbeliever thinks the answer lies within them (in the way that worldly religions require works for salvation). A believer sees that he needs outside help; or to put it another way, we don't have to fight alone. A nonbeliever is always thinking about other people's perceptions of them (Adam and Eve noticing their nakedness). A believer is too occupied with others' needs to care.
more self-promoting, unfounded nonsense. What answer are you on about? what grounds do you have to generalise that everyone in one group has some innate selfish/less-ness to them? that is just ignorant. Furthermore, Nothing about a non-believer implies that they're always considering themselves, if anything it is the other way around, the believer is conforming to social and cultural pressures, the non-believer has to declare their position against the consensus, this is standing against the tide and so your analogy is untrue. Moreover, in your last argument you claimed that you 'weren't alone' whereas we were individualistic, make your mind up, you're pushing a contradictory argument here. Plus, bible quotes aren't worth their pixels on here, or anywhere that considers real evidence, stop quoting. Finally, 'others' needs'? are you joking? believers have been discriminating and condemning for thousands of years whilst nonbelievers have constantly acted in a pacifist-like manner even during condemnation. I suppose the murder of others for different beliefs is caring for others, or perhaps you forget about the many crusades? That is such an insensitive, fundamentalist thing to say, you have no proof for that and the atheist/agnostic community is one of the most peaceful, progressive communities in the world you ignoramus.
Quote: As infants, we start out with "me" logic. The transformation takes place with help of the Holy Spirit, who fills us with unnatural thinking habits--because, of course, selflessness makes no logical sense in our world. We must be not attack atheists for not being logical, for in a worldly sense they are more logical than us. "If I want pleasures I have to go out and get them for myself. It's a dog eat dog world; I stop running and I'll be run over."Nope, holy spirit doesn't exist, sorry to burst your little god-bubble. Furthermore, you have no proof for this. The only unnatural thinking that the holy spirit provides is that everything different is scary and dangerous and should be di8scriminated against. No, that's stupid, selfishness makes perfect logical sense because we are naturally, genetically disposed to make our own lives our highest priority and this was useful during primordial development, you're being scientifically ignorant. "If I want pleasures I have to be pro-active, not sit around waiting for jesus to come give me a BJ"
Quote:There is an unnatural (spiritual) logic. And it is not reached by the brain, for our brain is of earthly matter.nope, no proof for this one either. Well then go and remove it from your body and see just how well you get on with that, because I'm pretty sure that it's 'earthly matter' will be necessary for your continued existence. Furthermore, supervenience theory and emergentism would argue that earthly matter is fine.[/quote]
Quote: It thinks only of itself, as it was made to do. We are the dog that seeks prey, that desires to be the alpha dog, because that is our only evident immediate purpose. The Holy Spirit is our trainer. He teaches us not to be ravenous wild beasts looking for the next meal, but self-controlled, disciplined persons.Nope, we are people, but maybe even that slipped your juvenile rationale so I'll explain. That is not our purpose, there is no known purpose and you're making suppositions without the slightest inkling of logic behind them, this is called ignorance and/or stupidity, depending on whether you realise you are doing it or not.
Quote: Our new logic tells us to trust our master--He knows what is best for us. He points out pleasures that are more lasting and fulfilling. This set of goggles is cleaner and more in line with the Truth of the world, and our purpose in it.God isn't real, therefore your argument is invalid. Furthermore, you have no knowledge of the truyth of the world because you attribute it all to some non-existent being and so have your eyes fixed firmly to the skies whereas everyone else gets that the earth has it's own truth and it's not contingent on some fairytale master.
Quote:The transition between goggles is done with the heart, via the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16 explains this well. 9-10 quotes Isaiah, As it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
And Romans 12:2,
“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing and perfect will.”
These are bible passages, they cannot be held to be true because they were written by people who never stopped preaching to actually think of backing up their bullshit claims with logic or evidence. Your entire argument is simply stupid and nothing you say here even amounts to the kind of good reasoning you suspect you had, your arguments are simply not arguments in the logical sense and rely on generalisations, offensive statements and a 'holier than thou' attitude which is completely conceited and unjustified, how about you accept what logic is first then come back and we can talk god? Fuck you and goodbye. (P.s- I was having homosexual sex whilst shaving my beard yesterday whilst blaspheming and disrespecting my parents, all the while I was cutting an upside down cross into my skin and using such rude words as bugger and whore. However, whilst this was occuring I was listening to rock and roll music, reading Sartre, I then proceeded to steal his wallet, fuck his wife before marriage and abort a baby with a falcon punch. I tried not to sin but it didn't work.)
Religion is an attempt to answer the philosophical questions of the unphilosophical man.
