RE: Why religion was necessary; why it no longer is.
August 17, 2012 at 3:09 am
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2012 at 3:15 am by Creed of Heresy.)
Heh, Lion, ya took me a bit too literally on the point about history and who it is written by. Context, good sir. Lemme address your counterpoints in the number they were brought up:
1: Name me a single major worldwide religion, as in sizable enough to affect political matters, where a woman can attain the highest rank available to a man. Catholicism, islam, protestant christianity, judaism, buddhism, shintoism, hinduism...hmm...nope, none of those have any gender-equality going for their hierarchies...quite the opposite, in fact...
2: Well we can naturally select to get rid of them. I naturally selected to do so myself. Naturally, the selection has actually done a fantastic job of becoming far more curious about the world surrounding me.
3: Oral tradition has its place. In a time where instantaneous communication was not possible. It now is. I prefer the internet; if you sift through the shit, you actually will find quite a lot of information. You just gotta, you know...sift through the shit.
4: Context is important here, actually. "History is written by the victors" refers to the victorious of wars and uses of force, not an in-general statement about historians. Quite often, in situations where wars were waged and the defeated were completely removed, we only hear of the glories and good of the victor...and not much in the ways of detraction. The further back you go the more prominent this becomes, though we still see it sometimes today in modern history...especially with the way the news corporations operate nowadays.
5: Like I said, the bible and its precursors/descendants are based in some part on history. Yet they haven't found other, more crucial things that would more directly corroborate the different reports... Like...whatever happened to the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrha? Or the burial cave of Moses on Mt. Sinai? There's many others, but those two pop into my head pretty quickly. Lots of time and effort spent searching and yet, nothing... I'm not saying they won't be found because I don't know that for a fact but I'm also not going to be surprised if in a hundred years they're still looking with nothing to show for it, is all...
6: Key word: Supernatural. And strictly speaking, miracles are considered supernatural. Childbirth...I wouldn't call it a miracle but I WOULD call it an extraordinary wonder. Yes, extraordinary; if you go by ordinary meaning the average of a chance and then consider all the variables involved with the development and birth of a fetus...it is actually quite extraordinary.
7: Tale of Two Cities: Little over 150 years. Bible: A little over 2,000 years, plus the bible kind of had the advantage of being one of the first books to ever be mass-printed. Kind of an unfair advantage, that.
8: It isn't. And I would never argue for atheism ever being a unifying factor. I'd argue for a lot of other things being a unifying factor, however...like active pursuit of the betterment of all humans regardless of nationality, color, gender, or anything else regarding the circumstance of their birth.
9: If you must apply force to spread your idea, then your idea is weak. You can apply force to try to expedite its spread if you truly are so impatient but that only corrupts the idea, taints it, makes it synonymous with brutality and therefore with weakness, and destroys what good it could have done if it had been adopted at the steady rate of progression that an idea will inevitably bring. But if people are willing to die for an idea in the face of having force threatened upon them, then it's even more profound. Nothing is absolute, of course. Gray areas abound. For example, I would die to preserve the idea of liberty and equality in humanity...but I would not die trying to force liberty and equality on others. That's the important thing to remember; you must let the idea spread through connection and adoption. If the others wish for liberty and equality after hearing and experiencing it themselves, then they will fight and die for it because then it is their idea and force is being threatened upon them for it. But remember...this only pertains to ideas that elevate all to equality. Ideas that harm or alienate others? Well, that is a form of force; doing something to someone else against their will.
...I don't understand the last part of what you are saying, though... XD
That's why my name is "Creed of Heresy," implying some long-winded set of ideas and details, and you are named "Minimalist," implying cutting through the bullshit and saying it quick and simple.
Sometimes, though, you need to spell it out. I like spelling it out, especially when I have fuck all else to do.
...Yeah, pretty much, actually. I say it was "necessary" not in the sense that there was no other option, but rather in the sense that in the days of information being largely relegated only to tribes, clans, or a few cities and therefore not in very high circulation at all, it was a handy tool that was required by the otherwise completely weak-willed rulers that were a dime a dozen back then. We sure have them today, too, of course, but back then, even more so. It was necessary for them; they couldn't really rule otherwise most of the time. But necessary for humanity? Not by a far cry...and we know this now...hence it is no longer necessary.
1: Name me a single major worldwide religion, as in sizable enough to affect political matters, where a woman can attain the highest rank available to a man. Catholicism, islam, protestant christianity, judaism, buddhism, shintoism, hinduism...hmm...nope, none of those have any gender-equality going for their hierarchies...quite the opposite, in fact...
2: Well we can naturally select to get rid of them. I naturally selected to do so myself. Naturally, the selection has actually done a fantastic job of becoming far more curious about the world surrounding me.
3: Oral tradition has its place. In a time where instantaneous communication was not possible. It now is. I prefer the internet; if you sift through the shit, you actually will find quite a lot of information. You just gotta, you know...sift through the shit.
4: Context is important here, actually. "History is written by the victors" refers to the victorious of wars and uses of force, not an in-general statement about historians. Quite often, in situations where wars were waged and the defeated were completely removed, we only hear of the glories and good of the victor...and not much in the ways of detraction. The further back you go the more prominent this becomes, though we still see it sometimes today in modern history...especially with the way the news corporations operate nowadays.
5: Like I said, the bible and its precursors/descendants are based in some part on history. Yet they haven't found other, more crucial things that would more directly corroborate the different reports... Like...whatever happened to the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrha? Or the burial cave of Moses on Mt. Sinai? There's many others, but those two pop into my head pretty quickly. Lots of time and effort spent searching and yet, nothing... I'm not saying they won't be found because I don't know that for a fact but I'm also not going to be surprised if in a hundred years they're still looking with nothing to show for it, is all...
6: Key word: Supernatural. And strictly speaking, miracles are considered supernatural. Childbirth...I wouldn't call it a miracle but I WOULD call it an extraordinary wonder. Yes, extraordinary; if you go by ordinary meaning the average of a chance and then consider all the variables involved with the development and birth of a fetus...it is actually quite extraordinary.
7: Tale of Two Cities: Little over 150 years. Bible: A little over 2,000 years, plus the bible kind of had the advantage of being one of the first books to ever be mass-printed. Kind of an unfair advantage, that.
8: It isn't. And I would never argue for atheism ever being a unifying factor. I'd argue for a lot of other things being a unifying factor, however...like active pursuit of the betterment of all humans regardless of nationality, color, gender, or anything else regarding the circumstance of their birth.
9: If you must apply force to spread your idea, then your idea is weak. You can apply force to try to expedite its spread if you truly are so impatient but that only corrupts the idea, taints it, makes it synonymous with brutality and therefore with weakness, and destroys what good it could have done if it had been adopted at the steady rate of progression that an idea will inevitably bring. But if people are willing to die for an idea in the face of having force threatened upon them, then it's even more profound. Nothing is absolute, of course. Gray areas abound. For example, I would die to preserve the idea of liberty and equality in humanity...but I would not die trying to force liberty and equality on others. That's the important thing to remember; you must let the idea spread through connection and adoption. If the others wish for liberty and equality after hearing and experiencing it themselves, then they will fight and die for it because then it is their idea and force is being threatened upon them for it. But remember...this only pertains to ideas that elevate all to equality. Ideas that harm or alienate others? Well, that is a form of force; doing something to someone else against their will.
...I don't understand the last part of what you are saying, though... XD
(August 17, 2012 at 2:42 am)Minimalist Wrote: That's a lot of words to say "people were really stupid back and gullible then and are a little less so, now" CoH.
That's why my name is "Creed of Heresy," implying some long-winded set of ideas and details, and you are named "Minimalist," implying cutting through the bullshit and saying it quick and simple.
Sometimes, though, you need to spell it out. I like spelling it out, especially when I have fuck all else to do.
(August 17, 2012 at 2:17 am)Chuck Wrote: Religion was never more necessary than a contagious disease. It is now less prevalent not because its never existent necessity ever had room for reduction, but because access to good mental hygiene has improved.
...Yeah, pretty much, actually. I say it was "necessary" not in the sense that there was no other option, but rather in the sense that in the days of information being largely relegated only to tribes, clans, or a few cities and therefore not in very high circulation at all, it was a handy tool that was required by the otherwise completely weak-willed rulers that were a dime a dozen back then. We sure have them today, too, of course, but back then, even more so. It was necessary for them; they couldn't really rule otherwise most of the time. But necessary for humanity? Not by a far cry...and we know this now...hence it is no longer necessary.
