Hey guys, just wanted to throw in my two cents.
First off, if this proves anything at all...it would only prove that the Bible is inerrant. I'm not arguing for inerrancy, rather I'm just going to try and provide some thoughts for consideration.
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The first text simply is not explicit. Either side of the argument, "he's saying slay them!" or "he's saying dedicate them," is going to be from contextual evidence and none of us here are trained in hermeneutics (I assume).
The word for "you shall give" in hebrew is "nathan" and has the following meanings in scripture. None of the meanings are "sacrifice." I think a stronger case can be made for "dedicate" but like I said....none of us, especially me, really possess the knowledge to make a strong case either way using only this text alone.
נָתַן nathan (678a); a prim. root; to give, put, set:—abandon(1), add(1), added(1), allow(14), allowed(3), applied(1), appoint(5), appointed(15), apportion(1), appropriated(1), ascribe(2), ascribed(2), assigned(5), bear(1), bestow(1), bestowed(2), blame*(1), bring(10), bring down(2), bringing(2), brings(2), brought(3), cast(3), cause(2), causes(1), certainly be given(1), certainly give(1), comes(1), commit(1), committed(1), conferred(1), consider(1), consign(1), contribute(1), cried(1), dedicated(1), defeat(1), deliver(26), delivered(26), delivers(3), designate(1), designated(1), direct(1), display(1), displayed(1), distribute(2), divide(1), enabled(1), entrust*(1), entrusted(2), entrusted*(1), establish(1), established(1), exchange(1), execute(1), executes(2), fasten(2), fastened(1), find(1), furnishing(1), gave(293), generously give(1), gift(1), give(491), given(259), gives(67), giving(37), grant(18), granted(11), growl*(1), had(3), hand over(2), hang(3), has had(1), have(2), have*(1), heap(1), held(1), hung(1), impose(1), imposed(3), indeed deliver(1), indeed give(1), inflict(2), inflicted(1), injured*(1), injures*(1), inserted(1), instilled(4), issued(5), kept giving(1), laid(5), lay(12), laying(1), lays(1), left(2), left hanging(1), lend(1), lends(1), let(7), lies*(1), lift(5), lifts(1), made(42), made turn(3), make(67), makes(3), making(3), marry off(1), offer(2), offered(4), Oh*(13), open*(1), over(1), paid(7), pay(6), performed(1), permit(2), pierce(1), pitch(1), place(13), placed(19), planted(1), pledged(2), pledged*(1), present(2), presented(1), prevent*(2), produces(1), provide(1), provided(2), provides(1), put(192), puts(4), putting(2), raised(2), reduces(1), render(2), repay(1), Requite(2), requited(1), roared loudly*(1), roared*(1), send(4), sends(1), sent(4), set(74), setting(5), show(2), showed(1), slander*(1), sounds forth(1), sparkles*(1), speaks forth(1), spend(1), spread(1), strike(1), submitted*(1), supplies(1), surely be given(1), surely give(2), take(2), taken(1), takes(1), to pay(1), took(1), traded(1), turned(6), used(1), utter(1), uttered(2), uttered forth(1), utters(5), wept*(1), wholly given(2), work(1), would*(7), yield(13), yield*(1), yielded(2), yields(2), yours(1).
Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.
Since I am not smart enough to make a case from that text alone I am wondering if you would allow me to draw upon other texts?
There is a method of interpreting scripture in which you use the clear passages to interpret the unclear passages. Consider the following verses:
Deuteronomy 12:29–31 (ESV) — 29 “When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ 31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
The above scripture is clear, God doesn't condone it. We could then apply that to the text in question (Ex) and say, "seems clear God doesn't like it, he's probably not commanding it here."
For the Eze text, I thought this was very interesting.
Ezekiel 20:25–26 (ESV) — 25 Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, 26 and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.
Frankly, I don't see what the problem is.
The first part of the text "I gave them statues that were not good and rules by which they could not have life" is foreshadowing the coming of the New Covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31–33 (ESV) — 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The second part is saying that they are defiled in God's eyes because they are doing what is detestable in his sight. So God allows them to do it so that in the aftermath they will know he is God.
Also it is helpful to keep in mind the context of the book of Ezekiel. Ezekiel lived during the time that Jerusalem and the Jewish people had gone into wide spread apostasy and they are being conquering by a foreign power (well they are about to, most of Ezekiel is the prophet trying to warn the people). It would not be uncommon to find alarming practices (like child sacrifice) occurring given Israels state of affairs. Because of practices like this God allowed the Jews to be put to death, their temple and homeland destroyed, and those that remained were taken captive and forced to move to a foreign land.
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Your case seems solid because you are linking the two verses (Ex & Eze) while in reality, there is no reason to do so.
I think by your own statements (before someone had tried to appeal to another chapter of Ex but you said it was written later after God had changed his mind) these two verses shouldn't be linked. Eze was written WAY after Ex, so by your own criteria (doesn't count because it came after) these verses are not a problem.
First off, if this proves anything at all...it would only prove that the Bible is inerrant. I'm not arguing for inerrancy, rather I'm just going to try and provide some thoughts for consideration.
~~~~~~
The first text simply is not explicit. Either side of the argument, "he's saying slay them!" or "he's saying dedicate them," is going to be from contextual evidence and none of us here are trained in hermeneutics (I assume).
The word for "you shall give" in hebrew is "nathan" and has the following meanings in scripture. None of the meanings are "sacrifice." I think a stronger case can be made for "dedicate" but like I said....none of us, especially me, really possess the knowledge to make a strong case either way using only this text alone.
נָתַן nathan (678a); a prim. root; to give, put, set:—abandon(1), add(1), added(1), allow(14), allowed(3), applied(1), appoint(5), appointed(15), apportion(1), appropriated(1), ascribe(2), ascribed(2), assigned(5), bear(1), bestow(1), bestowed(2), blame*(1), bring(10), bring down(2), bringing(2), brings(2), brought(3), cast(3), cause(2), causes(1), certainly be given(1), certainly give(1), comes(1), commit(1), committed(1), conferred(1), consider(1), consign(1), contribute(1), cried(1), dedicated(1), defeat(1), deliver(26), delivered(26), delivers(3), designate(1), designated(1), direct(1), display(1), displayed(1), distribute(2), divide(1), enabled(1), entrust*(1), entrusted(2), entrusted*(1), establish(1), established(1), exchange(1), execute(1), executes(2), fasten(2), fastened(1), find(1), furnishing(1), gave(293), generously give(1), gift(1), give(491), given(259), gives(67), giving(37), grant(18), granted(11), growl*(1), had(3), hand over(2), hang(3), has had(1), have(2), have*(1), heap(1), held(1), hung(1), impose(1), imposed(3), indeed deliver(1), indeed give(1), inflict(2), inflicted(1), injured*(1), injures*(1), inserted(1), instilled(4), issued(5), kept giving(1), laid(5), lay(12), laying(1), lays(1), left(2), left hanging(1), lend(1), lends(1), let(7), lies*(1), lift(5), lifts(1), made(42), made turn(3), make(67), makes(3), making(3), marry off(1), offer(2), offered(4), Oh*(13), open*(1), over(1), paid(7), pay(6), performed(1), permit(2), pierce(1), pitch(1), place(13), placed(19), planted(1), pledged(2), pledged*(1), present(2), presented(1), prevent*(2), produces(1), provide(1), provided(2), provides(1), put(192), puts(4), putting(2), raised(2), reduces(1), render(2), repay(1), Requite(2), requited(1), roared loudly*(1), roared*(1), send(4), sends(1), sent(4), set(74), setting(5), show(2), showed(1), slander*(1), sounds forth(1), sparkles*(1), speaks forth(1), spend(1), spread(1), strike(1), submitted*(1), supplies(1), surely be given(1), surely give(2), take(2), taken(1), takes(1), to pay(1), took(1), traded(1), turned(6), used(1), utter(1), uttered(2), uttered forth(1), utters(5), wept*(1), wholly given(2), work(1), would*(7), yield(13), yield*(1), yielded(2), yields(2), yours(1).
Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.
Since I am not smart enough to make a case from that text alone I am wondering if you would allow me to draw upon other texts?
There is a method of interpreting scripture in which you use the clear passages to interpret the unclear passages. Consider the following verses:
Deuteronomy 12:29–31 (ESV) — 29 “When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ 31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
The above scripture is clear, God doesn't condone it. We could then apply that to the text in question (Ex) and say, "seems clear God doesn't like it, he's probably not commanding it here."
For the Eze text, I thought this was very interesting.
Ezekiel 20:25–26 (ESV) — 25 Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, 26 and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.
Frankly, I don't see what the problem is.
The first part of the text "I gave them statues that were not good and rules by which they could not have life" is foreshadowing the coming of the New Covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31–33 (ESV) — 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The second part is saying that they are defiled in God's eyes because they are doing what is detestable in his sight. So God allows them to do it so that in the aftermath they will know he is God.
Also it is helpful to keep in mind the context of the book of Ezekiel. Ezekiel lived during the time that Jerusalem and the Jewish people had gone into wide spread apostasy and they are being conquering by a foreign power (well they are about to, most of Ezekiel is the prophet trying to warn the people). It would not be uncommon to find alarming practices (like child sacrifice) occurring given Israels state of affairs. Because of practices like this God allowed the Jews to be put to death, their temple and homeland destroyed, and those that remained were taken captive and forced to move to a foreign land.
~~~~~
Your case seems solid because you are linking the two verses (Ex & Eze) while in reality, there is no reason to do so.
I think by your own statements (before someone had tried to appeal to another chapter of Ex but you said it was written later after God had changed his mind) these two verses shouldn't be linked. Eze was written WAY after Ex, so by your own criteria (doesn't count because it came after) these verses are not a problem.