What do you do in Heaven?

[Cyberman]

Hey Stimbo!

Hey there!

Thanks for starting up this thread....I've read some of your more recent posts and you seem to alluding to a conflict in the proposed ideas about heaven. It's probably my fault, but I've reread some of the post and I'm unable to follow. Can you name them explicitly?

Probably, but I'm loath to go back through five pages and pick them out. At least there are only the five. The gist of it as I recall is that you are proposing a scenario wherein Heaven is a rebooted Earthly kingdom with no sin, free will etc. John V seems to indicate Heaven as being a state of exploring the Universe (incidentally, upon reflection I concede you are correct, John, that I was missing the point on this; no doubt I still am). In all fairness, you backed up your scenario with scriptural references, whereas the other one was supported solely by a pastor's musings - which is a fantastic name for a pub - on Carl Sagan's magnum opus Contact; a film I am only periphally aware of, based on a book I have never read, to my shame.

There was probably more to this than what I just related. However, it's all on record.

It may be naive of me but the traditional picture of Heaven is a place where the saved go after shuffling off this mortal coil.

Well, that's just a temporary fix if you will. The eventual heaven is a restored earth. The concept your referring to is what happens before the grand finale.

So Heaven is, at the moment, vacant of erstwhile Earthly tenants? I've actually heard this concept before, that nobody is in Heaven because Heaven is yet to be established.

If there is to be no sin etc, then surely that infringes upon the free will of the heavenly tenants, since they will be unable even to commit a sin even accidentally?

You are correct, "free will" in heaven will not entail the ability to choose sin.

However Christians long for the day when they don't have to struggle to do the right thing...they will always want and be able to do the right thing.

As with the point about being programmed to be content with one's lot, this sounds like a very good definition of Hell to me. I am merely a humble and godforsaken atheist, certainly no saint, yet I don't have to struggle to do the right thing. As a matter of fact, I don't even think about it, I can just do it automatically. I don't consider myself as having some special abilities in this area that others do not.

A couple of thoughts occur, adjacent to the main topic at hand so I wouldn't press for answers. Firstly, wouldn't this mean that "God" is okay with mind-control? Also, if this is so, why can't - or doesn't - "God" impose such control over its creations now, from wherever it resides, thus eradicating sin forever? Be warned, answering "free will" takes us into Orwellian doublethink territory.

Second, why would xtians want this so badly? Whenever I've come across discussions about dictatorial regimes and thought crime legislation, xtians are among those who (rightly) condemn such things. What makes this stuff an abhorrent evil on Earth, yet such a longed-for blessing in Heaven?

Worse, they can only act in ways that accord with your god's "glory", worshipping it for all eternity, which as I stated upfront is a hell of a long time - a kind of infinity.

That's actually not a new thing...the Bible teaches that on this earth now all things (in the grand scheme) work for the glory of God. Heaven will be the same.

I'm not going to point out that the bible doesn't teach anything, being a vastly overrated book (bugger, too late). I just want to ask what, then, is the need of Heaven?

A case in point can be lifted directly from your post. You say that "there will no longer be marriages, we will be more like you would imagine angels to be....completely content in our singleness". I was never content being single even before meeting up with my beloved Princess; I most certainly am not now after having her stolen from me. Obviously, there is little chance of my being considered for this new kingdom, since as an unbeliever I commit the one unforgivable sin. However, assuming for the moment that I do qualify for the housing list, I am to remain in this distressingly single state forever. Any version of me that has been reprogrammed so as accept this unhappy state is not going to be a me that anyone of my acquaintance is going to recognise, least of all me.

I'm sorry to hear that Stimbo.

I don't think you'd be content even if she came back though. I wrote about it here - http://www.morethanmorality.blogspot.com...idols.html

This was not intended to engender sympathy (thank you, by the way), nor was I expecting it to be used as a witnessing opportunity. The whole point of my words hinged on the issue of reprogramming, not my personal circumstances. Maybe it was my fault for mentioning them in the first place, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't do this again. Ok?

I'm interested too in how you expect businesses to work with all sin nullified. Aren't the overwhelming majority of businesses dependent on such 'sins' as greed, envy, lust perhaps? Even those ultra-rare businesses that might exist which operate on co-operative principles rely on a rigidly-defined system of demarcation, an us-and-them setup, which must inevitably lead to resentment of sorts between management and staff. I fear that such answers that may be offered for these matters are going to boil down at some point to 'godwillsit' or similar.

It is often that business do run on greed, but in heaven greed won't be something that one would have to struggle with. Businesses could be operated for the benefit fo the whole.
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I'd very much like to see the mechanics of this demonstrated, or rather illustrated. Simply throwing in a "could" at strategic locations doesn't necessarily make the whole thing work. I "could" suddenly decide to jack it all in and become a devout xtian. It's not going to happen, though.