RE: How is Yahweh not immoral?
November 21, 2012 at 12:23 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2012 at 12:25 pm by Drich.)
[quote='Darkstar' pid='364949' dateline='1353469759']
[quote]How is it that the god of the bible (Yahweh) is called a moral being? [/quote]Morality is a subjective term. It seem we have to have this discussion once a week here. As I said before our 'moralities' vary from person to person culture, to culture and even generation to generation within the same culture.
[quote]Sometimes I have heard theists (mainly Drich) say he is 'righteous'. From how the word has been used, one can only draw the conclusion that 'righteous' = objectively moral.[/quote]Righteousness is an unchanging absolute standard.
[quote] Whenever a story of god's immorality surfaces, one of the following apologetic arguments is used as a retort:
[quote]Let's look at the first one. What did Jesus really say?
He does not appear to have made any attempt to overturn them. Now, what if he did overturn them? This could only mean that god had made imperfect laws before.
Now, we will examine the second defense. This defense hurts its own argument more than it helps. If the laws of the OT coincide with the inferior moral views of the day (i.e. slavery permitted, semi-regular mass murders, etc.) then this is more evidence that they were created by human minds. After all, Jesus said
[/quote]What does 'full fill the law mean?
[quote]Who are we to question his infalliable wisdom? [/quote]Indeed.
[quote]Oh, by total coincidence (seriously) that leads us into the final defense. Saying that we are simply not allowed to be critical of something god does is simply more evidence that his actions could not actually be defended if they were ever questioned. In order for this to be a valid argument, one would first have to prove that god was a perfectly moral being. [/quote]This is a fallacy of logic. I have already demonstrated that morality is an ever changing standard. No one can ever be deemed 'perfectly moral' if every generation has a different understanding of what 'morality is.' For if one culture says 1, 2 ,3 is morality and another says no A, B, C is moral then how can anyone ever be considered "perfectly moral?"
[quote]Using the bible (it's true because it said it's true) isn't a very good method, but it seems to be the only method at all. [/quote]
Agreed. If one does not wish to align himself with the righteousness of God then the bible has no authority in that persons life. For the bible does not feed the self righteous behaivor that morality springs up from.
[quote]Feel free to bring up particular examples of god's immorality for the theists to challenge (or ignore). The first immoral act of god's was his punishing Adam and Eve for commiting an act he deemed immoral.[/quote]No God deemed it a sin. At this point 'morality' was not an issue.
[quote] As god created them to be amoral, and even forbid them from eating the fruit that would allow them to understand morality, they could not possibly have known that god had commanded them not to eat it for any reason other thanit killing them. When the snake told them it wouldn't kill them, they no longer had any reason not to eat it.[/quote]
It seems you are bent in claiming a term (morality) that Christ described as a failure of man to obtain God's righteousness, and turn it to mean something more than what it is. Despite what you might say to me or anyone else know in your heart of hearts that your 'morality' means nothing. That your 'morality' is like "Used menstral rags" to God. And whether you like it or not it is to this God and his standard that you will be judged, Not whatever 'morality' you decide for yourself.
[quote]How is it that the god of the bible (Yahweh) is called a moral being? [/quote]Morality is a subjective term. It seem we have to have this discussion once a week here. As I said before our 'moralities' vary from person to person culture, to culture and even generation to generation within the same culture.
[quote]Sometimes I have heard theists (mainly Drich) say he is 'righteous'. From how the word has been used, one can only draw the conclusion that 'righteous' = objectively moral.[/quote]Righteousness is an unchanging absolute standard.
[quote] Whenever a story of god's immorality surfaces, one of the following apologetic arguments is used as a retort:
- That was the OT.
- You just don't understand the customs of the day.
- Who are you to judge god?
[quote]Let's look at the first one. What did Jesus really say?
Now, we will examine the second defense. This defense hurts its own argument more than it helps. If the laws of the OT coincide with the inferior moral views of the day (i.e. slavery permitted, semi-regular mass murders, etc.) then this is more evidence that they were created by human minds. After all, Jesus said
[quote]Who are we to question his infalliable wisdom? [/quote]Indeed.
[quote]Oh, by total coincidence (seriously) that leads us into the final defense. Saying that we are simply not allowed to be critical of something god does is simply more evidence that his actions could not actually be defended if they were ever questioned. In order for this to be a valid argument, one would first have to prove that god was a perfectly moral being. [/quote]This is a fallacy of logic. I have already demonstrated that morality is an ever changing standard. No one can ever be deemed 'perfectly moral' if every generation has a different understanding of what 'morality is.' For if one culture says 1, 2 ,3 is morality and another says no A, B, C is moral then how can anyone ever be considered "perfectly moral?"
[quote]Using the bible (it's true because it said it's true) isn't a very good method, but it seems to be the only method at all. [/quote]
Agreed. If one does not wish to align himself with the righteousness of God then the bible has no authority in that persons life. For the bible does not feed the self righteous behaivor that morality springs up from.
[quote]Feel free to bring up particular examples of god's immorality for the theists to challenge (or ignore). The first immoral act of god's was his punishing Adam and Eve for commiting an act he deemed immoral.[/quote]No God deemed it a sin. At this point 'morality' was not an issue.
[quote] As god created them to be amoral, and even forbid them from eating the fruit that would allow them to understand morality, they could not possibly have known that god had commanded them not to eat it for any reason other thanit killing them. When the snake told them it wouldn't kill them, they no longer had any reason not to eat it.[/quote]
It seems you are bent in claiming a term (morality) that Christ described as a failure of man to obtain God's righteousness, and turn it to mean something more than what it is. Despite what you might say to me or anyone else know in your heart of hearts that your 'morality' means nothing. That your 'morality' is like "Used menstral rags" to God. And whether you like it or not it is to this God and his standard that you will be judged, Not whatever 'morality' you decide for yourself.
