Will Jesus return on a white horse?

[RichardP]

Just about everything Jesus taught had to do with the Ten Commandments and obeying them.

"Everything"? Jesus is affirming that the law still exists, that adultery is still a sin. He just finished telling the pharisees their actions did not matter and that "God knows your hearts" (Luke 16:15). Jesus' audience clearly understands his shift in focus from other Jewish rabbis, which is why he must go back and explain the law.

So are you arguing that Jesus would forgive that "sin" and therefore he would be eligible to go to heaven? He is not sincerely repentant.. If he had it to do over again he would still divorce her. Why should God forgive him?

Yes, why should He? Isn't it amazing how much God loves us! We need not repent of each sin individually (impossible). We need merely to believe He died for our sins and reform our hearts daily in grateful response.

Maybe you could argue that not all marriages are going to work and we have to be realistic about it and Jesus will forgive. But that sure as hell wasn't what he told the Pharisees. He didn't tell them that you could get divorced as long as you asked for forgiveness and then the sin of adultery would be forgiven -- and then you would be eligible for eternal life!!!

Jesus wants people who follow him to change, not to use forgiveness as a licence to sin. It sounds like this is an important topic to you. Have you experienced a difficult marriage? God can mend all wounds. And I believe that if both marriage partners love with an Godly agape (self-sacrificial) love, there will never be a divorce.

The truth is that the Christians never teach the Ten Commandments. They don't teach that salvation is dependent upon keeping the Ten Commandments.

Here's the thing. Salvation can be obtained by keeping God's law, meaning being one-hundred-percent righteous and sinless. But it is self-evident that no one has ever been fully righteous or even close. One selfish thought or white lie and the law is broken. That's why Jesus frequently says things like "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." You posted Matthew 19:17b-19. Well in Matthew 19:17a, Jesus replies, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only One who is good." He is questioning why the man is asking about being good by the law when there is "only One" who can be--God. He then proceeds to test the man's faith. Instead of telling him to refrain from doing evil (which is what the Ten Commandments calls for) he asks the man to selflessly sell everything and trust in God to provide. The man's true heart shows through as he leaves without doing what his Lord asked. Jesus sums up the narrative in verse 26 saying, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." According to him God is the one working, not us.

Jesus taught salvation by obeying the Ten Commandments. And when asked about salvation he always answered that they needed to follow the Ten Commandments.

In the collection of verses I posted, Jesus continually connects faith or belief in himself to life and forgiveness. Please explain why you see it differently, or tell me just where in the Bible you're referring to.

It sure wasn't his "faith" in the Jews God that made him help the man.

Jesus was again emphasizing that if someone were as loving as the Samaritan all the time, they would have to be righteous and worthy of heaven. Coincidentally, the only way to be so selfless is to possess the boundless love of God within. No one can be fully righteous unless they are so close to God as to practically be God, because all love comes from God. You can try to do all the necessary things to reach heaven, but it is impossible to know what all those necessary things are without actually seeing through loving eyes. The Jews passed the man on the road because they did not perceive helping him as part of the law. The line between good and evil is so fuzzy to humanity that we cannot completely know it without being connected to the moral Lawgiver—the One who created good and knows it from evil.

I think that the notion of "faith" is an extremely vague one. Maybe it is just me but I don't know what the hell "faith" means. Do you have a definition?

http://www.acts17-11.com/faith.html
A Christian’s faith, more specifically, is in who Jesus is (God) and what he has done (died for forgiveness of sins), is doing and will do in the future. It is similar to the faith a child has that his/her parent will come home and feed them--a trust based on one's knowledge/experience of that person.

We have such different perspectives.

You have to remember that I am an atheist. I will try to explain my perspective, but this will be different than anything you've probably ever read in a religious forum.

I will start by saying that I really like the philosophy that the Jesus Christ of the Bible taught. And for the sake of argument I will assume that he actually lived at one time. I can believe that part.

What I don't believe is that Jesus was born of a virgin. I don't believe that he ever healed anybody supernaturally. I don't believe that he walked on water. I don't believe that he performed any miracles. I don't believe that he "forgave" anybody their sins. I don't believe that he rose from the dead after being crucified, saw his disciples briefly, and then flew off to heaven on a chariot.

But none of those things really matter to me. What mattered to me was the philosophy that he taught. It was different, very different, from anything in the Old Testament. His approach and philosophy was a much more loving and forgiving one.

When people would ask him what they should do to receive eternal life he would tell them that they should obey the Ten Commandments. And I don't think that you can go too far wrong in trying to keep the Ten Commandments. But being an atheist I am not concerned about the Commandments that have to do with God.

1. I am the Lord your God, you shall have no gods before me.
(I am not concerned about this one)

2. Do no worship idols.
(I couldn't care less)

3. Keep holy the Sabbath.
(I couldn't care less)

4. Honor your father and mother.
[i](This one I like. Especially as I get older I am amazed by how much my parents have it all together.)[/i]

5. You shall not murder
(Definitely a healthy commandment to keep)

6. You shall not commit adultery
(Yeah don't cheat on your wife. If you have problems in the marriage try to work them out. Try to keep the marriage together. It makes for well adjusted kids and a stable society)

7. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor
(Spreading damning rumors about your neighbor that are either lies or something that you don't know for sure is true definitely makes things harder for your neighbor, and really isn't socially or mentally all that healthy.)

8. Do not steal
(Definitely a good commandment to keep)

9. Do not lie.
(Definitely a good idea. People will like you better if they find that you are somebody that they can really trust.)

10. Do not covet the neighbors wife or possessions.
(You will be happier if you don't waste time being jealous of other people)

------------------------

So now let's look at Matthew 19: 16-18

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[a] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”

So in this case Jesus actually narrows the Commandments down to the ones that he considers the most important. Notice he doesn't worry about the ones having to do with God. And while lying and being jealous are not good habits to form they aren't the most important.

The commandments that he emphasizes are the ones that have to do with other people -- and how you treat them. He doesn't mention "Loving God". He focuses on the ones that have to do with "Loving thy neighbor as thy self".

The type of people who try to live by these rules are the type of people that I would like to have as neighbors. They are the type of people that I would like to have as friends. I don't care if they try to live by these values through Gods power or by their own power. It doesn't matter to me.

However I find the idea that you can break these rules as long as you ask your make believe friend for forgiveness absurd.

It seems to me that point of having your imaginary friend forgive you is so you can have an imaginary life after death. It is not out of sympathy for the person that you murdered, or the person that you robbed, or the person that you smeared. It is more like, "I did these bad things but I don't want them to jeopardize my chances at life after death so "God" will you please forgive me?"

Jesus seemed to be looking outward and focusing on other people. His preaching cost him his own life. He argued that we need to be generous, charitable, helpful, loving and supportive of one another.

Paul, who came after him, never mentioned the Ten Commandments. He never mentioned which were more important. He argued that we were saved by "belief". His belief and philosophy seems to be much more internal and self-centered to me.

It seems that modern Christianity has become very vague. Nobody knows the Ten Commandments any more. If fact the atheists on this board, like me, probably know them better than most Christians. Especially those of us who were Christians. Because we looked at everything in a much more critical fashion.

I have never had a Christian tell me that Jesus Christ taught that you should keep the Ten Commandments if you want to have eternal life. They focused almost solely on what Paul taught. They focused on their own salvation and their "personal relationship with Jesus Christ".

As an atheist I don't agree with everything in the New Testament. I don't believe that Jesus said or did all of the things that are claimed in the Bible. But I do like the philosophy that Jesus Christ taught. It seems to be a rational healthy caring focus on other people -- rather than ourselves.

While I don't believe that there is a God and I don't think that I can make it true because I want so badly to continue to live in some form after I die -- I do believe that we can live this life well. And I think that certain philosophies lead to a more stable, happy, gratifying life.

Anyway hopefully that was understandable. I try to write clearly but good writing is not easy. I will reread your reply to see if I misunderstood and our philosophies are really more similar, but I don't that they really are.