(January 5, 2013 at 8:53 am)paulpablo Wrote: you claim that the qurans intentions are to make sure women are taken care of which i cant argue with, arguing about the intentions of a 1500 year old book which is written in a language i cant speak is beyond me.
And in islamic society where polygamy is acceptable youre right that the man needs to prove he has enough money in these circumstances to look after the women.
But the more we speak about men having enough money to afford 4 wives the more shallow it seems to me.
And we are talking about traditions from a book which definitely doesnt view women as equal, im almost certain even muslims with the wildest imaginations couldnt argue against that. A womans testimony is worth less in court, it says god created women less than men and that men can admonish and beat women if they fear rebelion from them.
But this thread really isnt here to argue about all that anyway, i was more hoping to get to know what individual muslim experiences are regarding this, like i said most of the muslims i know or know of either dont have the will power to not have sex or they just dont take the rule seriously, but whats your experience? for example, did you lose your virginity to your wife? dont you ever feel temptation?
i was looking for a bit more than ridged scholarly answers
Just wanted to adress a few points:
"A womans testimony is worth less in court"
THIS IS FALSE.
This is common misconception found on many sites and will be common through peoples thinking. If i asked a person about women rights in islam they would reply "but a women's witness is only worth half a mans".
There is very simple reply to this question. That it is false! The Quran speaks about witnesses in no less than 5 places in the Quran. In all verses apart from one verse a women's testimony is equal to that of a man's. So why is it in this verse that a women's witness is different? The answer is very simple when we look at the verse and the structure of an Islamic society.
In surah 2:282 - the longest chapter in the quran it says:
http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspa.../2_282.png
2:282
Sahih International
O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her.
Yusuf Ali
O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.
This verse explicity talks about financial transactions and nothing else.
In an Islamic society men have to provide financial support for the women in the society, his mother, sisters, wife and children. The women in the society can contribute if they wish but they don't have to. So in a society with this basis overall the men will be more financially aware. This is why if you cant find a man for the transaction then find two women because on average these women wont be as knowledgeable of financial transactions or the men will more knowledgeable in financial transactions. I'm not saying women don't have the capability i'm just saying on average.
Let me explain this using an example. Suppose a person wants to undergo an operation for a particular problem. To confirm this treatment, he would prefer taking references from two qualified surgeons. In case he is unable to find two surgeons, his second option would be one surgeon and two general practitioners.
Similarly in financial transactions men are expected to be well versed in financial transactions as they have the financial responsibility.
It should also be noted that a women witness is preferred also in some cases. When giving the burial bath of a women the witness has to be a women.
Every other situation that requires witnesses a women's witness is equal to a mans. To prove this point further:
Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) the wife of the beloved prophet has narrated no less than over 2220 ahadith which are considered authentic only on her solitary evidence. If Islam said a women witness is half a mans this wouldn't be allowed. This is sufficient proof that one witness of a women is equal to a mans.
In summary "A womans testimony is worth less in court" is false and incorrect. A women's witness is equal to a mans in every situation apart from specific financial transactions and a women's burial bath where a women is preferred.
This is explained in this video between 29:00-36:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg9GaR48QzU
" it says god created women less than men"
reference?
"that men can admonish and beat women if they fear rebelion from them"
This is false they cannot beat women and mistranslation of Surah 4:34:
The men are supporters/maintainers of the women with what God bestowed on some of them over others and with what they spent of their money, so the righteous women are dutiful; guardians to the unseen with what God guarded. And as for those women you fear their disloyalty, then: (first) you shall advise them, and (second) abandon them in the bed, and (lastly) cite them (to the authority). If they obeyed you, then seek not against them a way; Truly, God is High, Great. [4:34]
And if you (authority) feared a rift between them two, then appoint a judge from his family and a judge from hers. If they both want to reconcile, then God will bring agreement between them. God is Knowledgeable, Expert. [4:35]
Wife beating is haram.
Explained in :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...OGe-NI3wQA
22mins
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...1DpNIJL-Fk
Up to 3mins
As for scholarly opinions on sex before marriage i haven't researched it.
