Reasons for God

[Edwardo Piet]

You bring up a good point, so I have abandoned all the points I was pushing. Now I think it makes more sense to say that empathy is a good basis for believing in God.

And how is Empathy a good basis...for believing in God? I understand how it is - obviously (at least in my mind) - a good basis for morality, but why for belief in God? If you can empathize and be moral without God, then why do you need to use that as a basis for God?

1. What reason(s) is(are) there to believe God exists?

2. Since empathy is a very important basis for morality, then why should that be needed to be a basis for belief in God? If you can empathize, and be moral without God - how is God required at all?

You conceded that being moral doesn't make sense (you can't prove that murder is wrong).

Indeed.

You do it because "you care".

I'm moral because I care, yes.

God is a possible explanation of our existence, and because I care I choose Him.

If you care, why does that make you 'choose him'? You already care...why does that then lead to God, why is God required if you care already (and also why do you believe he exists anyway?).

God will treat everyone fairly.

Well he will if he exists (and if you specific God that you believes in that by definition will do that exists).

Those that don't care don't have to, but they will not be joined with those that do - that's hell, I think.

But as you said above, 'because you care' you 'choose God', so the caring comes before 'choosing' to believe in God. So if I, on the other hand (for example), care and yet don't 'choose to believe' in God, then why would God send me to hell if I'm a caring person? And if he wouldn't, and if I can care without him, why would I need to believe in him? And furthermore - of course: Why should I believe he exists anyway? What evidence is there of his existence? You say "everything", but that's reality and the universe. Where exactly is this supernatural deity? Yeah, I know, he's invisible and untouchable, he 'transcends' nature. Well, why should I believe there is a 'he' to transcend nature if he's so indistinguishable from if he...simply doesn't exist? (As I disbelieve he does).

I find the world inspiring to live in. So where is your evidence that there can be no meaning without God?

You enjoy driving down a dead end road where u-turns are illegal?

What are you talking about?

Being a good person and living a good life in general is beneficial to mankind...whether you're a believer or non-believer in God.

Yes, but I don't believe that's really possible without faith.

Why? What magic powers does "faith" - does believing without evidence - give you?

An ebb and flow is possible - giving and receiving, but I believe faith is the only way to bring on a tidal wave of good.

Why do you believe that? Got any evidence for this belief of yours that, somehow, "Faith" - belief without evidence - gives you some kind of power to do good than if you don't "have faith".

[...] I can care without God, believing in him doesn't give you special powers of kindness. If it did, then how come non-religious people can give a shit?

Because the non-religious receive repayment for the good they do, because they have plenty of support from people around them.

So how exactly does "Faith" - according to you give you the power to be genuinely unselfish, genuinely altruistic, which you somehow can't have if you don't hone it? If you don't hone this 'power' called, "Faith"?

I have real trouble believing they could go the extra mile without faith, ignorance, or insanity.

Why do you have real trouble? Simply your own personal incredulity doesn't any more make it not so of course (To say it does add to the implausibility of what you find implausible, would be to commit the fallacy of 'The Argument from Personal Incredulity'.

I think you are making a mistake about how much you care.

I think you're making a mistake because I know that I care, and I, furthermore, completely fail to see how "Faith" is the only way to genuinely care. How does taking things on "faith", how does 'having faith', how does believing without evidence: Give me a passport to genuinely caring? Why can't I - according to you it seems - genuinely care anyway?

Because, unless you can actually explain - until you can actually evidence - how I somehow logically can't care without believing in God, without 'having faith in him', then I'm of course not going to believe you. Of course I care about people, it's in my blood, I have feelings for people, I genuinely care.

If you are to say that without God this can only be for selfish reasons, then I won't believe you without evidence: Because I see that empathy and sympathy - compassion, etc - means genuinely caring, and you have as of yet completely failed to show me how I can't have these things - how I somehow can't genuinely care - without belief in God!

It's easy to think you are good when your life is good.

It's not that I 'think I am good', it's that I think I care because I feel that I care and it's these caring feelings that I care that I equate to caring!

It's easy to give when you've got plenty.

Well it certainly means that there's more to give. But some people have a lot because they're greedy, so it doesn't necessarily equate to giving. But yes it's easier because there's more to give.

A good person gives when they have nothing - when everything they have has been taken.

I would hope I'd do all I can for both myself and others if I were in a very touch situation (Or worse than 'very touch').

How could you understand that you are good?

Well it depends what you mean by good. As I said just above "It's not that I 'think I am good', it's that I think I care because I feel that I care and it's these caring feelings that I care that I equate to caring!".

I do my best to be good because I care.

I can ask the same to you, how could you understand that you are good? How does believing in God, make it any different? How? And where's the evidence for this God while we're at it? (So he is to not be more than simply a placebo for you).

How does God make the issue any easier?

Faith makes it possible to be unfairly good - being good amidst evil.

How does it?

When the world is beating people down, the natural reaction is to fight, lash out, or run away and give up...not to give.

Depends who the "people" are, we are all individuals. But yes, you appear to simply be talking to the 'Fight of Flight' response.

Faith allows believers to overcome.

How?

Perhaps by comforting them, because they, perhaps, feel better if they believe? But if it means something to them and so that's why - of course - they care...then that doesn't make their belief any more likely to be true. In itself, without evidence, why should it be believed that this consoling belief, this 'faith belief' is anything more than a placebo for them?

Now, if I were you I wouldn't judge faith by the way most "Christian" people act...most of them probably don't have much faith at all, so they are hardly able to beat their circumstances and be good examples.

Well whether they have faith or not, what difference does it make to morality?

P.S. You notice that my question above was:

How does God make the issue any easier?

, you then told me that "Faith" makes it easier...: But you didn't explain how it does...

EvF