Reasons for God

[ecolox]

Sure. You can be consoled by alcohol and drugs, friends and family, or success and good fortune.

Or any other crackpot religion besides your own. Or pseudo science , etc.

Crackpot religions lead to failures, while correct religion does not, but to success.

[...] The faithful doesn't need substances and can be consoled in times of failure.

It's still got fuck-all to do with the reality of the matter. And delusion can be dangerous. Especially when believers don't realize that their belief is just consoling because they believe it is. Because what evidence is there that their belief is actually true?

You don't know what the reality is, no one does. This is where faith comes in. Faith can be beneficial, if properly placed, or it can be very dangerous. Remaining uncertain forces you into inaction, this is why I believe that everyone decides and lives according to some interpretation of what the reality "must be". EvF doesn't live in uncertainty and inaction. You choose to define your own reality, and eek out a meaning in that way - an example of dangerous faith, self-centered by definition. Anyway, the consolation I have experienced is very real, whether you think it's baseless or not and it is God centered. It enables one to endure people's selfish nature, whilst not feeding their own.

And where's your evidence? You can't give any. You argue form consolation and then act as if you're right about his existence too without any actual evidence.

Any evidence that I offer you will interpret in your own way - denying my interpretation. Why bother? I don't know if God exists through evidence and logic, I have faith. I don't know if my life and all of my decisions will be Judged by God when He decides I have lived long enough. I choose to believe that I will be held responsible for my decisions, and that God is good and sovereign and will set things right in the end. This enables me to live life to the fullest when I am beaten down by circumstances and even selfish acts by people around me. I can have hope even when the world, which is far beyond my control, is testing me rigorously. This hope enables me to continue doing what I believe God's will must be. It allows me to look after the poor when I am poor myself, etc.

Friends and family actually exist.

Yes, and God may actually exist. I appreciate my friends and family too.

I'd rather devote myself to my friends and family than to God, because at least my friends and family actually exist.

Devoting yourself to your friends and family may lead you to do things that are not compatible with the greater good, thus it is better to devote yourself to God. I work for the benefit of creation, trying to work inline with God's work - even to my own detriment and demise if necessary I'd hope.

And if God does exist, does he actually need any time spent on him?! Isn't he perfect how he is? Why the fuck bother putting any time into God when he's so perfect and I could be spending time with my family and friends? And...which god?

God doesn't absolutely need us to act in any particular way, just as parents don't absolutely need their children to act a very certain way. But God (and the parents) will be pleased when people choose to act a certain way. -- The only God that makes sense to me is the one I choose to believe in - the truths that have been carried down through history, the way the world works, and so on indicate what I must believe.

What evidence is there actually for this God of yours?

All the evidence in the world, though it isn't conclusive it does make sense.

God never fails when sought after with genuine faith.

Evidence that statement or stop barely asserting it.

That's just my personal experience on the matter.

Cos I can just respond with "The Flying Spaghetti Monster never fails when sought after with genuine faith."

I could care less. This isn't your personal experience, it's just a claim you have fabricated - dishonesty.

I like all humans am insecure.

I'm not talking about being 100% superhumanly secure. I'm talking about the fact that you believe you need God for consolation when I don't, could show you as being more insecure than me for instance. I don't need that shit.

I need consolation from God to live according to God's will. If I were to live like you I would be taking consolation and reward from the world instead, and I wouldn't need God, just as you don't. I see your actions as a hindrance to society's moral progress. You're perpetuating what's wrong with the world. This is why I choose to live precariously, being good at my own risk.

...but not in being good in any real way.

And what's "real way" to you?

If people attack me I take it without flinching. If people need help I give it, even when I need more help myself. Stuff like that.

They certainly didn't defend the poor in spirit.

Then either you are deluded or by chance you've ran into some rather bad atheists.

I ran into regular atheists. The poor in spirit are in need of hope more than anyone else. Atheism is the end of all hope.

Atheists are just people who don't believe in God. Religion can motivate you to do immoral things, or to do moral things for non-moral reasons. Either way it's not exactly morally enlightening. Religion either causes more immorality or it causes phony morality, it seems to me.

I've found that religion can enable one to do moral things beyond what one should be able to based upon detectable moral support.

Name one moral act that a religious person can do that an atheist can't. Then think of things such as 911 that are a result of religion.

This isn't about one moral act. This is about being moral consistently even to your own detriment. This is about the long haul, the long run, etc.

The mystery of the universe, our ignorance, disallows us from concluding, through bare logic, that God is the only possible answer behind it all.

Evidence that. You are merely asserting that. How the fuck does logic point to God? Sorry, but it seems to me that you argue from nothing more than personal incredulity and consolation.

You failed to comprehend my statement. I think you'll be agreeing with me when you do understand what was stated.

You should merely consider God possible, if you're only logical.

Prove that.

Prove that God is possible? Are you mad?

I haven't because I can't. Now I'm just explaining how reasonable God is in light of how consoling faith is in the pursuit of good.

Whether it consoles you or not, "he" can't be reasonable if he doesn't exist. For if he doesn't exist there is no "he".

God is a possible explanation of this existence. Uncertainty leads to inaction. I must choose an interpretation of the mystery of our existence in order to live. I choose to live as if God will judge me for every decision I make, because, I think, if everyone did that the world would be the best place it could be.

You must not risk very much then. You live in a safe house. This is indicative of the selfishness you are limited to...

What a pathetic conclusion you have made. How safe is safe? And how the fuck does that indicate selfishness?

My conclusion isn't pathetic, your choosing to live in a safe house is pathetic. Your selfishness is indicated through your excessive self-preservation - and self-serving worldview. You want to be able to do whatever you want that may be pleasurable to yourself, thus you do not believe something that will better the world. You believe something about the universe that will better your own life. You free yourself from the responsibilities that I believe will better the world - responsibility to a Judge of greater good.

I hate to deny reality as well.

Then why does the consolation point matter to you so much? If God doesn't exist then to believe in him because he's consoling ... is to deny reality.

Because consolation enables a person to do more. No it isn't a denial of reality. The reality is unknown. I cannot make decisions according to a mystery. I choose to believe what I see as most logical and most beneficial to the world, so that I can act in the world. You don't know if God exists or not, you assume He doesn't. So, as you say, if God does exist then to not believe in Him is to deny reality.

If you're honest about reality then you are faced with an immense mystery, and this in and of itself isn't consoling in the least.

Maybe not to you. I am interested in reality and mystery. I certainly don't fear mystery. I revel in it.

How do you not fear the mystery of the universe, but revel in it? How funny. You really are on top of the world then.

Mystery and uncertainty are hardly consoling.

They are to me.

How so? So if your parents disappeared you wouldn't want to know if they were dead or alive? You would be happy living in mystery...you wouldn't seek to resolve the mystery...you'd be too busy reveling. Ha-ha.

For sure, the few truths you are aware of are meaningless when set beside the ultimate truth (mystery) of the universe.

I am fascinated in the mystery of the universe. And I don't try to pathetically, superficially, gratuitously explain them away with "God".

Exactly, e.g. you revel in the mystery of your parents disappearance. This is perhaps the most illogical position I've heard in recent memory. To the contrary, I do indeed take on the most meaningful and beneficial explanation of the universe that I can.

I believe that this reality is indicative, though not conclusive, of God.

How is he? You can believe that if you want but I have no fucking idea what the hell you are talking about.

It's a matter more of the heart than the mind. We all know that God is possible. When faced with the mystery of the universe everyone decides to live in some way or another. No one, not even you, dances happily around in the mystery as you just illogically claimed to... No, you say that you define your own morality and you define what your life means --- you, you, you...for you by you, responsible only to you.

I do make a leap of faith due to my pursuit of and reverence to what is good.

I don't need to believe in God to be good. I am good.

Your lifestyle doesn't demand much of you, so it's possible for you to have a self-centered worldview.

You don't have a clue what explanation a fine-tuned universe requires, so you cannot claim that God complicates the explanation.

Well you have yet to prove God. So the complexity of the universe + the complexity of God is more complex than just the complexity of the universe. Adding God into the equation makes it more complex unless you can actually explain how it doesn't. The burden of proof is on you. That is extremely obvious.

You have yet to prove how the universe exists. I don't need to prove God to know that you don't know anything about the explanation of the universe. The "complexity of the universe" may well need the "complexity of God" in order to exist. I'm not trying to prove God so the burden of proof is not on me. You have just made the positive claim that "the complexity of the universe + the complexity of God is more complex than just the complexity of the universe" - this doesn't hold up because you haven't shown that the "complexity of the universe" can exist apart from the "complexity of God". The burden of proof is on the claimant, I think that is obvious, and I know you'll agree if your honest.

Before we have evidence of either God or how the universe is so complex. Then the problem of God's existnece + the universe is more of a problem than just the universe. Because until you evidence God, it's infinitely more rational to cut out the middle man. Because it's extremely fucking irrational special pleading to just take God on faith but not apply to same logic to other things, even when the same logic should apply.

What are you talking about friend? You start with a fragment. You buttress that with nonsense, some vulgarity, and some more nonsense.

It may well be that God is the simplest viable explanation of this universe and our existence that very much hangs in the balance.

It may be. But what fucking reason have you got to believe that? And what reason have you got to believe there's one in the first place? That's just wishful thinking on your part. Extremely irrational.

So you concede that God may be the best explanation.
What reason do I have for believing? Well, I could dance around in mystery like a dumbass, or I could accept a meaning to the universe and live. I choose to live as if I will be held responsible for my actions, and I think everyone should do the same. That would be great for the world - belief in God.

---

Ok, how?

Simple, being socially minded.

So when society wants you dead, you'll die?

I generally do care about others well being.

Except when it conflicts with your own interests, right?

As much as you can in fact.

I know, keep it up.

Tell me, why do I need some imaginary friend in order to do good if I can already do good without such a thing?

Because doing good in a hopeless situation is not possible without faith.

Sustained, secret good, such that you are not rewarded. This isn't a competition, by the way...though I'm sure you'd put on a great show in order to "win" against me.

I was not asking for a competition. I simply asked what is it you think I cannot do. The above you mentioned is something I can and have already done.

Sustained...long term giving more than receiving. I imagine this isn't something you've already done. Once you die and your life is reviewed, then we'll know.

I do things for others despite there being no reward for me. I've done things that I will not gain from but others gain from it. So you are dead wrong there. I can do all the good in the world just as you can. It's just I don't need a religion or some god thing to give me a reason to do it.

Keep it up.

Thanks Ace for rehashing what EvF just said and making the same mistakes.

If you think I'm wrong then answer the blood questions that I put as an example! Don't just say I'm wrong and dance around my points, answer them or say nothing.

If you want to read my responses look at the stuff directed at EvF. You copied him. I responded to the original viewpoint, not the duplicate perpetrated by you. If you want me to respond to some other points you made that weren't plagiarized then you'll have to wait, perhaps forever. I can't respond to everything and much would just be a waste of time (i.e. I should be doing better things).