Women. You have men by the balls.(...)

[John V]

No, why?

You follow up with appropriate Scriptural support yourself.

Since you didn't specify I'm going to go ahead and put my next point in here, Have you ever heard about Joyce Meyer's Ministries?

No.

Growing up, it was frowned upon that she 'dared' preach. She's been dis-communicated from her own church as a result of her endeavors. Still, she's been able to do the following which I feel is worth far more to the credit of her religion than speaking when told she shouldn't be. I always respected her husband highly. Despite verses such as this she still teaches, and I respect her too for overcoming the sexism of her religion.

1. From my reading of the Bible, a ministry should be judged by the truth it holds, not by its worldy results. Jesus said some would perform miracles in his name, yet in the end he would declare that he didn't know them.

2. That's between her, God, and her church.

GAL 3: 28
There is neither Jew nor Greek,
there is neither bond nor free, there is neither
male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I think this verse and others like it argue against your position. In the next life there will be no distinction between male and female. In this world, God has set roles for men and women. If some don't like them, they should consider this eternal condition. As Paul said, our temporal sufferings are nothing compared to our eternal reward.

What if she disagrees with your judgement?

Asked and answered. She's my advisor, so she advises me, then I have the final word.

What if your judgement is wrong? It happens, you know

Then it's wrong. Won't be the first time, or the last.

Here's what the Bible says to do in such a case:

"If she go not as thou wouldest have her, cut her off from thy flesh, and give her a bill of divorce, and let her go." (Eccles. 25: 26)

I don't study the Apocrypha.

Then it gives an answer but is it not foolish for a wife to let her husband continue down a path she knows is wrong, in silence?

1. What if she's wrong? It happens, you know.

2. Advisors aren't silent.

1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,when they see your respectful and pure conduct.

Not every argument can be waited out in respectful pure conduct,[/quote]
Why do you speak of arguments? My wife and I agree that things get discussed, then if we don't reach the same conclusion, I make the final decision. That model doesn't give rise to arguments. Arguments flow from two completely equal partners.

sometimes decisions need to be made immediately. What is she to do if she disagrees with you? Answer: be silent. Right?

That makes no sense. If the situation is that urgent, then it's even more important that one party be designated as the decision maker.

How would the race die out? I'm not saying women should not make babies, I'm saying that the only place for a woman is where she wants to be, and if it isn't in the kitchen so be it. Opposite of what the Bible says on the matter, no?

No. I gave you a verse from Prov 31. Go read the chapter from v. 10 to the end. There's not much that a Biblical wife doesn't do.[hide]

4. If she ran for congress would you have any objections?
Yes, seems like it would be a big waste of time as she's never held office of any kind.

Fair enough. Soooo if she was competent and able to hold office, would you object?

My wife in particular? Yes. I don't want a wife in DC. Women in general? No, I don't object. Ever hear of Deborah, the judge? She ruled Israel for a time.

I am coming to the belief that you are a moderate when it comes to the bible, but you are by far in the minority then.

I don't try to be liberal, moderate, or conservative. I try to be accurate.

Fair enough, you got me there. I merely quoted a religious persons personal opinion on subject I guess.

Yes, it seems more like you're continuing an argument with your father, then that you've seriously studied the Bible on these issues.

I ask because these verses have been thrown in my face my entire life

Paul puts the blame on Adam:

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

The bible seems to contradict your beliefs, and is it not the living word of god in your eyes? Or do you concede that it is written by fallible men and that you need to temper that knowledge with what you believe from the Bible?

I disagree that it seems to contradict my beliefs. Again, read Prov 31. That woman manages people, runs businesses, and does real estate transactions. Seems pretty competent to me.

Perhaps not you, but others agree that these verses mean that should she divorce her husband that makes her an adulterer. This is the paramount reason why I have seen religious women stay in abusive marriages. Because in the Bible, adulterers have a special place in hell.

First, we're pretty much all adulterers according to Jesus in the sermon on the mount. We have salvation. So, even if one concludes that divorce is adultery, it doesn't mean hell.

Second, a woman in an abusive marriage who feels this way should separate for her own safety, but not remarry. It's the subsequent relationships that triggers adultery, not the leaving.

Thank you for answering me btw, I appreciate the honesty and look forward to any input you have to offer. I don't have any qualms with what you're saying thus far, I merely wish to relay to you the view that others of your religion hold as true.

No, you wish to relay to me views that others hold that you find objectionable, because you hold a grudge regarding past treatment. For example, you mention a church that discommunicates a woman for preaching, but don't mention the churches that ordain women. You C&P lists of verses that can be taken as detrimental to women, but aren't aware of sections favorable to women.

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See I don't mind religious beliefs, I actually like you frOdo It's just that religion becomes inter-twined with politics by default.

Do I think religion is the main force driving what is holding women back from leadership roles? No. I agree with Rythm and JohnV's line of thinking that it's more biological. Or rather, society's view on biology.

Because to be honest, women are not holding themselves back they are being held back by themselves and men and have been since oh, always. It's never going to change, in my opinion, without radical new thinking on both sides. And in the last decade things have actually gotten worse (according to the Center for American Women and Politics at Rutgers University).

Both sides can point to positive and negative leadership qualities in women but at the end of the day the main reason why there's only six female US Governors and 8 female Mayors has nothing to do with how strong or tall or weak someone is, it's estrogen.

In my experience a lot of it has to do with child rearing. Women do more of it than men. Women tend to want to do it more than men. In my profession, time and again I've seen women rising as rapidly as men, but then taking years off or going part-time to raise children. They lose more in earnings than daycare would cost, but they actually want to raise their children. They can't then continue to rise as fast as those who don't make that choice.

People tried telling women they could have it all. They were wrong. There are choices and trade-offs in life. Women in general seem more hard-wired to desire raising children than men, and so fewer of them reach the top.