3 reasons for Christians to start questionng their faith

[smax]

Just reading back through some these responses and realized I missed this one:

We begin with a testimony we must take by faith? Please prove you "practiced the faith"? Did you do everything the sermon on the Mount instructed you to do? Did you have "rivers of living water" flowing from you rinnermost being, as Jesus said true believers would experience? If so, please describe this experience. If not, at least admit you missed a few milestones.

Of course I didn't experience "rivers of living water". LOL.

Neither have you, although I don't doubt that you think you have.

Actually the rules of logic dictate that you prove the Bible writers are liars, at least those who speak first or second hand, as required in a court of law. Stories like the Flood story or Creation are a valid exception, since we don't even have second hand witnesses. The rest you have to prove false. Otherwise you are just slandering or libelling people with no accountability yourself, and without them being able to answer you.

By that logic, all I have to do is write my own book claiming the Bible writers are all liars. With that, the burden will be on you to prove that I am a liar.

All joking and sarcasm aside, if you just take a second and think about the argument you are making, you'd quickly realize that it's fundamentally flawed.

Lots of stories have been writen about lots of things relating to god and religion, and many of those things are not consistent with, and do not promote, Christianity.

Sense everything that has ever been written cannot all be true, than the only logical course of action is to challenge the validity of any supernatural claims.

More crappy logic I'm afraid. Are you sure your logic professor agreed?

Nothing stumps an argument quite so effectively as the word "crappy". LOL.

By the way, Hitchens studied at a constituent college of the University of Oxford. I'll be sure to forward your complaint of their logic professors being "crappy". I'm sure they'll find it every bit as amusing as I did.

Well no, I would say that when you ignore his will so completely, disobey 15 of the the 10 commandments, knock off his prophets, and finally kill his son, he has no reason to even speak to you until you are ready to listen.

That is some great parenting advice. Before your kids are even born, hold them in contempt, alienate them, and refuse to communicate with and guide them. In other words, take no parental responsibility whatsoever.

Now that's love!

Exactly right!! I totally agree. So what other faith saves a thief at the last moment? What other faith has nine gifts of the Holy Spirit, none of which you seem to have experienced yourself? What other faith can brag to have had the likes of 55 American founders, a John Locke, and ALL the abolitionists as followers? Those who have actually tried Christianity have all kinds of reasons.

Dude, Islam offers 72 virgins for martyrdom! Nothing in the Bible can even come close to competing with that. Don't even embarass yourself by trying to come up with something.

That said, I wasn't referring to incentive when I wrote "faith without reason". I was referring to reason when I wrote "reason".

Yes I can agree, those who had such experiences are more likely to believe. You apparently never did, so note how you are contradictiong yourself. You said you "practiced the faith" but had no such experience? First you tell us you practiced it, then you say one should get to see a miracle before being asked to practice it. In your case that is obviously true, but there are other experiences Jesus promised which are plenty of proof for me, like spontaneous speaking in tongues, etc.

No contradiction at all. I was raised Christian and had numerous Christian associations (still do). Naturally, I tried to make that lifestyle I was taught work.

Eventually, however, I came to realize that Santa Clause was just a story that was made up to get little boys to behave all year so as not to end up on the naughty list.

Santa Clause, Jesus, same thing, different stages of progression.

Well since you can't show me anyone who has actually practiced what Jesus preached, your claim here is completely unfounded. Not to mention, nobody had Bibles to read untl 300 years ago.

You lost me here, man. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

I will say this, however, you make a great point about the Bible. God is so powerful that he can literally speak entire planets and ecosystems into existence. But, for some reason, he's a lot less resourceful and efficient when it comes to completing a series of books that are critical to his people meeting his standards.

Um, didn't you know that it was the Christians who first freed their slaves, in such massive numbers that Constantine had to make rules about it?

Could you be any more vague?

Did you not know John Locke beieved every word of the NT and Jefferson called him one of the three "greatest men in the world". ?

John Locke was a great man, but he obviously did not believe every word of the New Testament, as many of his theories and views were of secular influence. His take on religion as it relates to government:

(1) Earthly judges, the state in particular, and human beings generally, cannot dependably evaluate the truth-claims of competing religious standpoints;

(2) Even if they could, enforcing a single "true religion" would not have the desired effect, because belief cannot be compelled by violence;

(3) Coercing religious uniformity would lead to more social disorder than allowing diversity.

Did you not know what happened when "reason" was worshipped during the French Revolution? What atrocities occurred? (Called Voltaire's war by some, and a true bloodbath)

The Age of Reason, as it is referred to, followed the Age of Faith, also known as the Dark Ages.

Naturally, the people just being freed of religious oppression and bondage, had a bad taste in their mouths, and wanted to rid the world of religion altogether.

By the way, I love how you completely ignore the part religion played in all of this.

Did you not know that 70 million innocent people were killed by atheistic government experiments like Communism.

Communism? You mean like this:

Acts 2:44-45
All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

Acts 4:32
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had

And the reason is, there not only was no objective moral standard, but no one had an "internal policeman" at all. Hence the police state is inevitable.

No one has an internal policeman, but most people have a conscience. And, if any belief creates a police state type of environment, it is the beliefs of religious fanatics who feel it's unacceptable for people to have diverse views.

But of course you got all your morals from thin air, unlike Jefferson, who explicitly said he got them form Jesus.

Thomas Jefferson edited the New Testament, removing everything outlandish and supernatural, so as to retain only that which is morally redeeming, rational, and reasonable.

Does that sound like a hard core Christian to you, or does it sound more like someone who recognizes the dangers inherent in supernatural beliefs, and aspires to eliminate that danger?

Thomas Jefferson, much like many of the other founding fathers, was basically a deist. He had an association with the Church, and was an advocate of it some ways, but many of his beliefs were divergent enough from the fundamentals of Christiantity to rule him out as a member.

Since you trust scientists, you might want to read Werner Von' Brauns take on the value of belief in a Judgement Day. (It should be obvious)

I trust science, but that does not mean that I trust all scientists. And, I gotta tell you, I find it very amusing that you think the relatively premitive views of one scientist could persuade me to abandon good reason.

We don't need a fairy tale with the potential for a terrible end to motivate good moral value. We are all human beings, and share a certain empathy and desire to survive and succeed as a result.

And, the values that you think come from god, actually come from man anyway, as man invented god and all his attributes and standards along with him.

Don't think so?

Then explain why even god's moral values have changed progressively over the centuries just as man's moral values have changed.

And I really hope that you are familiar enough with your own Bible that I don't have to point to the many many changes in "god's" moral values from the Old Testament to the New Testament.

I've been there and you haven't, obviously. So I think I'll decide that for myself.

You've been there, huh? LOL.

How'd you like singing how wonderful god is all day and night with his name tatooed on your forhead?

It's no wonder you're back!