(March 27, 2013 at 11:07 am)Drich Wrote: Christopher Hitchens once said, “The bible makes magnificent claims, we should require magnificent proof.”

Now, of course, Christians will counter that by saying, “God must leave plenty of room for faith”.

Ah, no. God provides proof for all who simply Ask, Seek and Knock as out lined in Luke 11. If C.Hitch, you or anyone else did not get the proof Moses or Paul got it is because none of you A/S/K as described in luke 11.

Fine - I will ask

Have YOUR god appear and PROVE in person its existence and power in a way that will make all Muslim clerics conclude that they are wrong - and have them lead their flocks to YOUR god.


And to date - the only answer anyone gets from theists like you is more reasons why your ALMIGHTY all powerful go cannot do something!!!!!

(March 31, 2013 at 1:25 pm)ThomM Wrote:

(March 27, 2013 at 11:07 am)Drich Wrote: Christopher Hitchens once said, “The bible makes magnificent claims, we should require magnificent proof.”

Now, of course, Christians will counter that by saying, “God must leave plenty of room for faith”.

Ah, no. God provides proof for all who simply Ask, Seek and Knock as out lined in Luke 11. If C.Hitch, you or anyone else did not get the proof Moses or Paul got it is because none of you A/S/K as described in luke 11.

Fine - I will ask

Have YOUR god appear and PROVE in person its existence and power in a way that will make all Muslim clerics conclude that they are wrong - and have them lead their flocks to YOUR god.


And to date - the only answer anyone gets from theists like you is more reasons why your ALMIGHTY all powerful go cannot do something!!!!!

2 Peter 3

Quote:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, ‘Where is this “coming” he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

When God reveals His face, it will be judgment day. No one can look upon His glory and live, unless they are first cleansed by Jesus. Your being cleansed requires the recognition that you need a savior. Without that recognition, you are a man who refuses to put on shades when facing the sun.

"Jesus will return soon." - billions of dead people.

(March 31, 2013 at 2:06 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote: "Jesus will return soon." - billions of dead people.

To the dead, Jesus has already returned.

(March 31, 2013 at 2:06 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote: "Jesus will return soon." - billions of dead people.

...for the last 2,000+ years.

(March 31, 2013 at 2:08 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(March 31, 2013 at 2:06 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote: "Jesus will return soon." - billions of dead people.

To the dead, Jesus has already returned.

Isn't it funny how there are a million ways to directly experience proof of God, yet every single one of them is unverifiable?

Sometimes I wonder if Strodel has a goal to amuse everyone on here. Like he doesn't actually believe any of the Christian faith, he just like messing with us. I guess we'll never know

(March 31, 2013 at 2:04 pm)Undeceived Wrote: When God reveals His face, it will be judgment day. No one can look upon His glory and live, unless they are first cleansed by Jesus. Your being cleansed requires the recognition that you need a savior. Without that recognition, you are a man who refuses to put on shades when facing the sun.

You might be forgetting a few people who "looked on his glory" without having any opportunity to be "cleansed by jesus" what with being his predecessors in this little charade.....

Even so, is this supposed to terrify people into not requesting such a thing? People routinely risk their lives to discover things. Clearly the threat of death upon discovery doesn't frighten everyone as much as it;s supposed to frighten the reader. I'd risk my life to see a previously undiscovered plant......you think I'd have trouble with putting it on the line to discover a god? I mean honestly, if this is all the threat it takes - that's some uninquisitive shit right there......

(March 27, 2013 at 7:19 am)smax Wrote: As someone who spent over 25 years practicing the Christian faith, and who has since found greater liberty and personal fulfillment outside of that practice,

We begin with a testimony we must take by faith? Please prove you "practiced the faith"? Did you do everything the sermon on the Mount instructed you to do? Did you have "rivers of living water" flowing from you rinnermost being, as Jesus said true believers would experience? If so, please describe this experience. If not, at least admit you missed a few milestones.

Quote:Christianity fails to substantiate even the most basic of it’s claims, such as the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. But even more compelling is the fact that the story of Jesus is part of a collection of books filled with scientific impossibilities, contradictions, and bogus history.

Actually the rules of logic dictate that you prove the Bible writers are liars, at least those who speak first or second hand, as required in a court of law. Stories like the Flood story or Creation are a valid exception, since we don't even have second hand witnesses. The rest you have to prove false. Otherwise you are just slandering or libelling people with no accountability yourself, and without them being able to answer you.

Quote:Christopher Hitchens once said, “The bible makes magnificent claims, we should require magnificent proof.”

More crappy logic I'm afraid. Are you sure your logic professor agreed?

Quote:Now, of course, Christians will counter that by saying, “God must leave plenty of room for faith”. There are, however, two fundamental problems with that perspective:

Well no, I would say that when you ignore his will so completely, disobey 15 of the the 10 commandments, knock off his prophets, and finally kill his son, he has no reason to even speak to you until you are ready to listen.

Quote:(a) It leaves far too much room for error. If faith is the primary driving force behind a person’s belief, what is to stop them from believing in any number of other religious ideas or practices? Faith without first having good reason is meaningless.

Exactly right!! I totally agree. So what other faith saves a thief at the last moment? What other faith has nine gifts of the Holy Spirit, none of which you seem to have experienced yourself? What other faith can brag to have had the likes of 55 American founders, a John Locke, and ALL the abolitionists as followers? Those who have actually tried Christianity have all kinds of reasons.

Quote:Moses, for example was shown a burning bush, which actually spoke to him and very specifically declared:

....Even at that, Moses still had his doubts, so he was given even more undeniable evidence, as well as the power to demonstrate his god ordained purpose to others. (Exodus Chapter 3)

Yes I can agree, those who had such experiences are more likely to believe. You apparently never did, so note how you are contradictiong yourself. You said you "practiced the faith" but had no such experience? First you tell us you practiced it, then you say one should get to see a miracle before being asked to practice it. In your case that is obviously true, but there are other experiences Jesus promised which are plenty of proof for me, like spontaneous speaking in tongues, etc.

Quote:In contrast, Christianity offers no practical solution for the survival and success of man kind, and instead trivializes human life while promoting completely unstubstantiated claims of an eternal spiritual existence beyond the grave.

Well since you can't show me anyone who has actually practiced what Jesus preached, your claim here is completely unfounded. Not to mention, nobody had Bibles to read untl 300 years ago.

Quote:With that in mind, is it any wonder why Christians throughout history have committed so many terrible atrocities? Once you strip a human being of his regard for human life (especially his own) with promises of eternal and spiritual prosperity, you create a potentially homicidal maniac that will do anything in the name of god.

Um, didn't you know that it was the Christians who first freed their slaves, in such massive numbers that Constantine had to make rules about it? Did you not know John Locke beieved every word of the NT and Jefferson called him one of the three "greatest men in the world". ? Did you not know what happened when "reason" was worshipped during the French Revolution? What atrocities occurred? (Called Voltaire's war by some, and a true bloodbath) Did you not know that 70 million innocent people were killed by atheistic government experiments like Communism. And the reason is, there not only was no objective moral standard, but no one had an "internal policeman" at all. Hence the police state is inevitable. But of course you got all your morals from thin air, unlike Jefferson, who explicitly said he got them form Jesus. Since you trust scientists, you might want to read Werner Von' Brauns take on the value of belief in a Judgement Day. (It should be obvious)

Quote:I’m not sure which is the more wishful thinking: that the heaven of the bible exists at all, or that it's actually a place worth going to.

I've been there and you haven't, obviously. So I think I'll decide that for myself.