free will paradox

[Esquilax]

1. God isn't soft. God's justice is real... or there is no fairness in the world and hopelessness prevails. Victorian ideas of hell fire are of that era. Preaching hate is anti Christ. I know there are such christians around today that do this.

Dude, I've been an atheist all my life, and I have to tell you, from a secular perspective, things aren't hopeless. I see a world that is full to brimming with hope, and the best part is, it's human hope, driven by the passion and intellect and kindness of the people I can go out and meet anytime I like. It's hope with real world consequences, and it's so much more meaningful because it comes from me, and I don't have to abdicate credit for it to anything else.

The idea you have that everything is hopeless without god is a wrong one, enforced upon you by the religion you subscribe to to make you afraid of ever questioning or leaving it. There is no ultimate justice, but that doesn't mean there's no hope. Take it from a pure atheist perspective that literally can't imagine how you've managed to convince yourself of your god; this world is just as wonderful without him.

3. Yeah we're living it.

Again, this is solely something you've been convinced of by your religion in order to instill in-group/out-group thinking onto you. It's quite peaceful, for me.

No it isn't. You can and do (just like any human) put yourself through hell most days. This is you pulling yourself apart from God and his desire for you to be fulfilled and happy.

"God" is not synonymous with "happiness." I can be, and I am, happy without god, because the world around me is bursting with awesome shit.

Part of that hell is you unable to forgive where God can forgive anything. What I and Christians believe that you can't, is that justice prevails. Hitler (/insert person with a lot of bad acts to forgive here) will pay his dues just like anyone else. We believe in a posthumous judge where you're limited to the injustice of life served out in a persons lifetime. Hitler might have pretty much got away with it, and many people might feel that justice wasn't served.

Except that's not exactly true, is it? You've got a posthumous judge that, according to you, can "forgive anything," so long as you repent. Not repent to the people you've harmed, but to god. So, Hitler could very well be in heaven, while guys like me will be going to hell simply because we won't believe without evidence.

There's no justice here. Just a lord looking for the correct bunch of sycophants.

So what is messed up? Ickle you who just rejects good and chooses to be good and bad, and gets off scott free just like Hitler who was pretty twisted and did some horendous stuff? This is your reality. Pretty dire isn't it?

That's your perspective: do whatever you want, beg forgiveness from someone not even connected with the harm you've caused, be rewarded forever. Who is getting off scot free again?

I'd also point out that Hitler died in ruin with the remains of his empire toppling around him, in ignominy, to be forever remembered as one of the worst villains in history, I wouldn't exactly say he got off scot free.

I would also suggest that eternal torture is not justice because there's no possible crime that might justify it. We live in a finite universe, and no matter how much one does it will by definition be finite, while hell is not. Every part of your "justice" system is rotten.

1. false assumption on your part there.
"Innocent like children" does not equal "all children are innocent".
Only a being capable of knowing the future could know if a child, or all of a persons decendants, turns out to be unforgivably (sic) evil right?

Are you in the habit of punishing people for things they haven't done yet, Frodo? Or of punishing the descendants for the crimes of their parents? This is your justice?

2. Jesus existed before time as God according to John. The divine revelation was acted out as it was destined to. Amid that process God appeared differently, but all the time God was unchanging.

Except that god did change, didn't he? I mean, from the old testament bastard to the new testament peace-and-love kind of guy? And changed to Jesus too, if we're having this conversation...