A challenge about women and marriage in Islam

[paulpablo]

I'm going to go out to the gym now and try and have a productive day, while I'm gone you can carry on trying to argue that a system which allows a 40 year old man to beat and have sex with a 9 year old girl is "better" because you say some 9 year olds are horny so they should be allowed to have sex with adults.

Add to that the fact that the system is easily corruptable and a lot of these girls get pulled out of education and actually don't even want to be in the marriage but are forced by their parents.

1. In Islam, it is clearly forbidden for a Muslim man to marry a woman if it is against her will as the Quran states:

"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them , except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary, live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good." - (Surah 4:29)

So, if some Muslim parents force their daughters to get married when they don't really want to (which happens quite often), then that is wrong, according to their own religion.

2. The opinion that Aisha was a 9-year-old girl when she got married to Muhammad is not a settled matter. The exact age durng her marriage and the consummation of her marriage with Muhammad is disputed amongst scholars because there are several other hadiths/narrations which suggest that, according to calculations derived from specific dates, she could not have been 9 years old when she got married to Muhammad. Most of them suggest that she was at least 12 at that time.

http://realdeen.wordpress.com/2006/07/30...rat-aisha/

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- According to hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.

- Ibn Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.

- Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.

- Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre Islamic period, which could be said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.

- According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.

- Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn Urwa reporting on the authority of his father. All the narratives of this event have been reported through narrators from Iraq, where Hisham ibn Urwa is reported to have shifted after living in Madinah for seventy-one years. It is reported in one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Muhammad reports that Yaqub ibn Shaibah said, “narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq”. It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq. Another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Muhammad reports that when he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly.

- According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.

- According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha – if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH – was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

- According to many Ahadith in Bukhari, it is believed Aisha participated in the battle of Badr and Uhud.Also in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi) Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation. So if it was not allowed to participate in Uhud for people younger than 15, then Aisha would be atleast 15 in those battles, making her age atleast 13 to 14 at the time of marriage.

- Tabaqat ibn Sa’d, 8:58; Ansab al-Ashraf, 1:410. Opinions are in disagreement concerning her marriage with Muhammad. Their marriage seems to have taken place either two of five years after the Migration (Usd al-ghaba, 5:501).

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3. I discussed the same topic in an older thread that I created where I presented my arguments step-by-step, in the posts below:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-7027-pos...#pid139862
http://atheistforums.org/thread-7027-pos...#pid140407
http://atheistforums.org/thread-7027-pos...#pid140629

We already have a system in place that prevents women being forced into marriages and even this system has flaws.

If you want to talk about systems and laws then you have to look at what effect these laws will have. As I've already shown when the Islamic system is in place this opens the flood gates for 9 year olds to be forced into marriage, taken out of education beaten and so on and so on as I've re typed over and over.

The law is easily corruptible, ok so the 9 year old gets married she doesn't like it but her parents tell her to shut up and her husband beats her, what's the law going to do?
With the laws of the quran her husband can beat her, she's supposed to respect her parents no matter what.

If you don't want to talk about legislation or systems we can just make up rules that would work in a fantasy world, ok so here's one.

Be good to one another all the time and never beat anyone or do anything wrong or punish anyone ever.

You may say but what if the person deserves to be punished, well they won't deserve to be punished if they are following the rules so my rule is much better than the islamic one where women are allowed to be beaten.

So you can talk about this system in theory, in which case it's flawed because I can just make up any theoretical law that if people followed it would solve all the problems in the world, and the law wouldn't involve anyone being beaten.

Or we can talk about what actually happens when these Islamic laws of marriage is put into place which is as I've repeated, forced marriages, lack of education, beatings, children becoming pregnant.

We can talk about this system either way you want it's still going to be wrong.