The Power of Belief

[Raven]

Raven Wrote: What we believe to be true colors everything which we see. For instance, if you have a hypothetical 30-something guy who is given to conspiracy theories, everywhere this guy looks he is going to see conspiracies. He'll probably think that there was a plot of some kind to kill JFK,
Drich wrote:
Smile If there had not been a plot to kill JFK he would not have been Shot by Lee Harvey. (It only takes one to plot.)

1-One person plotting does not a conspiracy make.

Quote:that the moon landings were faked, that economic problems are caused by some vast government/banker conspiracy,

Drich wrote:There was. it is called greed. Greed is what allowed the banks and the goverment/Fanny mae and freddy mac, to make one bad loan after another in a real estate bubble, to people who could not ever hope to pay back what they had borrowed.

2-Greedy bankers does not a conspiracy make either, unless they were all acting in concert. They were merely acting like greedy bankers and traders. It was not like some group effort thought it out beforehand. Don't be obtuse.

Quote:and be concerned about the Muslims conspiring to take over the US, with Obama as their head guy who is going to take away our guns, lock up true Xtian NRA members and institute Sharia law.

Drich wrote:Maybe not take over, but Mr. Obama has loosened this country's policys enough to allow attacks by radical muslims to be carried out against the US once again. Not saying this is an all bad thing as there needs to be an over all ying to the pervious adminstrations yang, but one can not argue that we are more vurnable than we were 8 years ago.

-You may not be caught up in that crazy right-wing fantasy world, but there are enough who are. Those were who I was referring to, the people who listen to Pam Geller, etc. I was just making the point that as you believe, so shall you act. They believe that, and they act accordingly. We all act according to what it is that we believe, whatever that is. All this Islamophobia is not helping.

Quote: And he will believe this as strongly as I believe that the sky is overcast as I write this.

Drich wrote:As you can see anti conspircy theroists can also turn a blind eye to the truth, in an effort to perserve their ideal world where everyone and every source of information can be taken as it is persented. This is the core of that 'iron age' wisdom you are trying to shun here. It is to seek truth and prize it above all else. Even if it means going against popular beliefs and social manidates.

4-Just what “truth” am I turning a blind eye toward? No one thinks that everyone and every source of information can be taken as presented. Whatever gave you that idea? Because I don't subscribe to your “revealed truth” from some dusty old tome that was written by various authors ages ago? Nothing in the Bible fact-checks very well. I very much want truth, that is why I don't try to find it in that book of yours.

Quote:Here's the deal- as you believe, so you will behave. So, if you believe that God has a plan, that is going to influence all of your decisions, actions, etc.

Drich wrote:Then you do not understand the nature of God's plan. 'God's Plan" as outlined in scripture is to give us the ablity to choose. (He did this with the planting of the tree of knoweledge in the Garden) and to redeem us from the bad choices we make/sin (Christ did this on the cross.) The final part of that plan is for us to seek and save the lost, once the last person who is to be saved has been saved, He is to end the reign of man.

Or so says the bible. Now if you're privy to some other plan then feel free to share.

5-I cannot understand that which does not exist. I have the ability to choose because he does not even exist.

Now we get to the infamous tree! Yes! The world's very first case of entrapment! Sorry, you are going to have to let them move back into the Garden because this case has been thrown out due to the malfeasance of the authorities. It's quite simple: Your sky-daddy is omnimax. He knew full well what would happen when he put that tree there. He knew that the snake would come along and entice Eve, who would in turn entice Adam. Once that was done, their goose was cooked. And God knew what would happen. Entrapment. Not very nice behavior for an omnibenevolent creator, is it?

Reading that book one easily comes to the conclusion that his poor little children are merely playthings for a malevolent super being who delights in “smiting” his creations at every least opportunity. Your god has some serious anger-control issues. First you had Adam and Eve, then the Noachian flood (let's destroy everything and everyone on the planet because I'm in a bad mood!), the whole silly tower of Babel thing, destroying Sodom for being like any city is going to be. Then comes one of my favorites, Lot's wife gets turned into a pillar of salt for the high crime of turning and looking back at the city that had been her home. What a terrible thing to do! And don't you think that the whole business with Egypt was kind of overdone? We could go on forever, but what for? You slough all the atrocities in the OT off because of your beliefs. You have too much invested in this notion of he is the one true god and you do not dare to question what is in there, or to recognize that it is atrocious. You are blind to the life-denying ugliness of it all.

Quote:It's up to the creator what happens. If bad things happen to you then you start thinking that God is angry with you and you deserve this.

Drich wrote:Uh, no. If bad things happen then bad things happen and it is up to you to live and learn from it or to let it turn your heart cold to God, because you did not get your way.

Quote: To a very large extent you cease to think for yourself.

Drich wrote:The irony. Do you know how many times in 8 years of doing this I have answered this exact line of thought? To which none have ever been able to go line by line and refute every point I bring up. Why? Because most of you never thought about God or the bible in the way I am sharing with you.

Drich wrote:It's like you guys were all programed in some big institution to all think the same way and call it 'thinking for yourself.'

6-Actually I was programmed in some big institution, the Roman Catholic church. I was in their clutches for 12 years, primary and secondary school. Getting out from under the influence of that brainwashing was no mean feat. You don't get out without some damage that will never go away. As for thinking about God or the bible your way, why would I want to? It isn't real.

Quote: It's your life to live but you keep trying to live it for some imaginary being instead of living it for yourself. Whose life is it anyway?

Drich wrote:...and if the being is not imaginary?

7-OK, what if the being is not imaginary? Well, he sure has been doing a damned good job of making it look like he is. So just maybe he's trying to entrap all of us atheists. But I really don't think so.

Quote:That is one of the things I most have against the continuation of religious belief.

Drich wrote:So if it were up to you. the religious need to be placed in camps and made to stay there until re-educated? forced to think as you do? Some sort of Camp that forces them to Concentrate on being an approved citizen...

The only one 'final question' is what to do with those who will not yeild their beliefs?

8-Don't put words in my mouth. I expressed a dislike of the continuation of religious belief, yes. Doing so does not lead to my desiring some kind of neo-Maoist cultural revolution with atheist cadres running around wild-eyed rounding believers up. What's with the paranoia? In time, and it won't be in my lifetime, of that I'm certain, humankind will evolve beyond it's need to subject itself to this celestial North Korea known as religion. We don't need it anymore. We've grown up enough that we don't need imaginary friends any longer, especially ones that are so bloody malevolent and vindictive.

Quote: What they are doing is taking people's lives away from them with their ridiculous fairy tales.

So, This is why your so anti conspiricy! You wanted to set up a peer pressure dynamic so when someone argues this point you can fall back on your orginal dismissal of God and religion you established in your opening statement. Thus allowing you the option to mock those who do not think as you do.

9-Yes, these ridiculous fairy tales are taking people's lives away. How does that make me “anti-conspiracy”? Huh? I am of the opinion that conspiracy theorists are a bit loony, and I was only using them as a way of showing that you will see things according to what it is you will believe. So this really does not follow. Where does peer pressure come into this? Not from my side surely. You religious types are the ones who go in for that. Such as the recent case (this kind of stuff happens all too frequently in this country) of Gage Pulliam.

Every single classroom in the Muldrow, Okla., school district has a Commandments plaque on the wall. That didn’t sit well with Gage Pulliam, so he decided to do something about it.

Pulliam contacted the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF), which informed the district that the religious plaques are a violation of the Constitution and should be removed.

Pulliam initially wanted to complain anonymously, but he chose to reveal his identity recently. Now he tells the “Friendly Atheist” blog that both he and his sister have been victims of verbal harassment and threats.

https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separat...-at-public
This kind of crap happens over and over again. So don't go pulling that peer-pressure bullshit on me.

Quote: They frighten small children with graphic descriptions of hell.

Drich wrote:If you think the descriptions are terriable, wait to you see it for yourself.

10-Even if you were correct about the existence of hell, what possible good could come from traumatizing very young children with these graphic descriptions of hell? What is with you people that you would want to do that? There is no excuse.

Quote:They tell girls that they must spend their lives subordinate to first their father, and then their husband.

Drich wrote:"They" also tell the boys to be subordinate to their fathers, and to love their wives to the point of giving their own lives for them, as Christ did for the Chruch. Or do you not care about the whole context of that passage as it speaks against the point you were trying to make.

11-Context be damned. In fundamentalist Xtianity women don't count for squat. They're just there to do as they are told, bear kids and keep house. Women do not get to be full human beings in this scenario. The men get everything. He's in charge. He decides. He always gets a pass. Love their wives? Maybe they do, but it is still a patriarchy. I don't treat my wife like that. We are partners, equally. It's our household, our marriage, our mutual life together. Nobody is “more equal than others”. Anything else would be repugnant to us.

Quote:They endlessly promote obedience over using one's brain and thinking for themselves.

Drich wrote: We are talking about Christianity right? For the stated purpose of Christianity is to attone for all of the DISobedience one is privy to in his/her life time. Meaning God's knows we can not truly be obediant, so He sacrificed His Son so you have a way to be found righteous in His eyes, without having to be 'obediant' to all of His law.

12-That is such a load of stuff and nonsense. For starters, whatever was the necessity of this hideous blood sacrifice that Jesus is supposed to have made ? They never did explain that one to me. Those damnable nuns telling us over and over “He died for your sins!” We were little kids ffs! What the hell were we supposed to have done? That is no way to treat children. But anyway, as it stands now, I only have to say that if he wanted to do that, that's his look-out. This happened 2000 years ago. I had nothing to do with it. I do not even accept the concept of sin. That's bullshit. There is right and wrong, yes. We can figure that out by ourselves, thank you. And why your omnimax deity had to take a little side-trip down to planet earth and get himself killed in order to cleanse the earth of humankind's sins is beyond me. What was the necessity of a blood sacrifice to himself!?? Will someone please explain that one? This is some seriously twisted stuff.

Quote:But it is all done with love so that makes it OK.

Drich: As apposed to what. Hating the religious because they do not want to live for self? Demanding the banishment of all who do not think as you do? From where do you demand these decrees in this manifesto? It's obvious, your thread here was not written from a place of 'love.' Does that mean anger, hate and intollerance is ok so long as it is done in the name of 'logic and reason?'

13-Again, do not put words in my mouth. I did not call for the banishment of anybody. We'll evolve beyond all this tribal god nonsense in time. As I said before, I do not expect it to happen in my lifetime. I would like them to quit trying to force their anachronistic beliefs down everyone else's throats in the meantime, however.

Quote:If you believe that being Gay (as if you had a choice in such things) is wrong,

Drich wrote:Being Gay is a sin.

Quote:then you can discriminate against such people and you are being righteous in doing so.

Drich wrote:Actually no you can not. for all sin.
Being Gay is a sin like any other and all are born unto sin. Meaning we are all 'wrong' and ALL were born to be 'wrong.' So no 'wrong' person can say he is better than another. What Makes us right before God is the sacrifice Christ made. Nothing else. He did this so no man could boast about his own 'rightness.'

14-Some people are gay. They just are. Some people are bi, and others are transgendered. It happens. Why do you want to make their lives even more difficult by giving them a hard time about it? I've got it easy, I'm a white heterosexual male with a wife and 4 grown kids. That saved me a lot of aggravation and pain. What these people have to put up with from self-righteous intolerant people who want to label them as being wrong just for being is unconscionable. To do this to them is just plain fucking wrong. What is it to you (or your god) who these people love, or how they express their gender identity? How are they hurting you, me or anyone? They are just trying to live, dammit. Why can't you just let them?

Quote:If you believe that your religion is the only right and proper way for a person to live their life, then it is OK for you to do all kinds of things:

Drich wrote:Are we still talking about Christianity? For the Christ tells us the religion in of itself is meaningless.

15-Bollocks. You bloody xtians wrap your whole lives around this identity of yours.

Quoteo all in your power to take away a woman's right to choose, without actually outlawing it outright, being those nasty feminists got that Roe v Wade decision on their side. But that isn't going to stop us doing what is right, dammit!

Drich wrote: You are aware killing a baby is killing a baby, and if you do it yourself or simply support such a desision then it kinda takes you out of the realm to judge a God who would do the same...

Meaning if you support the murder of a child then you loose any legitmate claim you may have had to judge so one who does not support the murder of a baby.

16-Terminating a pregnancy is not killing a baby. A non-viable fetus is not a baby. What I love most is how these holy rollers make all this noise about the “right to life” but don't want to provide a social safety net to the kids once they are here.

Quote:Let a woman die rather than terminate her pregnancy, because that's what God wants. What's right is right.
Drich wrote:
ROFLOL
So of the 3500 +/- abortions that happened yesterday just in the US, 3500 women lives were saved?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_abort...aily_in_US

Are you familiar with the term logical fallacy?

17-I was referring to the case of Savita Halappanavar, who died in a hospital in Ireland. She was determined to be miscarrying and the hospital denied her the care she needed (to terminate the pregnancy) because a “a fetal heartbeat was present”. She continued on for 2 and half days until the heartbeat stopped. The dead fetus was removed and she died of septicaemia. But they did the right thing. Hallelujah!

Quoteeny adolescents proper sex education because it would be improper to teach them anything other than abstain until you are married.

Drich wrote:Again are you speaking of Christianity? This is the Christian section of the website is it not?

Because Christians in general do not discourage sexual education. They simply think that it is not something the state should decide for them. after all if a religious person should decide their 5 years old is too young to be exposed to sex, then the State should not force their children to be apart of a sex education class.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/edu...nesco.html

What a crock! The US has been fighting a never ending fight over sex ed for adolescents. OK, adolescents. It does not work. It has increased teen pregnancy. All because these religious fuckwads are afraid their kids might actually act like kids. The horror! <shudder>

f you wish to live in a celestial North Korea, be my guest. Just keep your iron age beliefs off my law books.