The Power of Belief

[Drich]

1-One person plotting does not a conspiracy make.

Neither I nor your comment in the OP said anything about a conspiracy. You Said:"There wasn't a plot to JFK." I responded with if there wasn't a plot to kill JKF He would not have been shot.

2-Greedy bankers does not a conspiracy make either, unless they were all acting in concert. They were merely acting like greedy bankers and traders. It was not like some group effort thought it out beforehand. Don't be obtuse.

Don't be naive or obstinate here. I also listed a two govermental agencies (That in your rebuttal you seem to have forgotten about) who had to work in concert with banks to provide loans to people who could not pay them back in order to inflate the market driving up prices and profits. colusion on this level makes a conspiricy sport.

-You may not be caught up in that crazy right-wing fantasy world, but there are enough who are. Those were who I was referring to, the people who listen to Pam Geller, etc. I was just making the point that as you believe, so shall you act. They believe that, and they act accordingly. We all act according to what it is that we believe, whatever that is. All this Islamophobia is not helping.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_a...facilities
So all of the attacks on US embassies in conjucntion with the recent domestic terror attacks are because of Islam based fear mongering?

Perhaps it would not be so easy to sell fear (That's what a monger is, a peddler of goods) if the majority of the attacks against this country were not carried out by those who fly the flag of that religion.

After all do you fear the sons of Thor? The fighters of anubis? could I sell you on the Idea that a group of radical buddhist monks were bombing subway trains? No?!?! Why do you think that is? Because none of these groups has a long standing record of doing these things. Now what if I replaced Buddhist monks with Islamic extremeists? would you believe that?

4-Just what “truth” am I turning a blind eye toward?

That it only takes one person to plot the death of another, even a president. That when Banks and govermental agencies work together and give loans to people who do not qualify for them, for the sake of the bottom line. (While bannering the idea the people just need to be given equal oppertunities to own their own home. even if they can not pay back their loans.) the fact that you believe that what you think about a person or group of people somehow dictates their behaivor as in the case of muslim extremeist behavior.. These are all examples of turning a blind eye to truth.

No one thinks that everyone and every source of information can be taken as presented. Whatever gave you that idea?

Your opening statement in contrast of the truth I have persented. You wanted to automatically dismiss your examples as crazy conspiricy theorists fodder, when in fact there was some truths you chose to over look.

Because I don't subscribe to your “revealed truth” from some dusty old tome that was written by various authors ages ago? Nothing in the Bible fact-checks very well.

You have failed to establish your ablity to decern basic facts from examples of popular belief. (The belief being that you whole list of examples was a list of debunked conspiricys) So how is it I am to take your word and your failed ablity of descernment and apply it to the bible?

I very much want truth, that is why I don't try to find it in that book of yours.

Do you know what Irony is? You claim to want to know the truth but can not recognise it when modern examples of it effortlessly pass you by. Yet you feel somehow this makes you an expert in discerning whether or not a book you have not read contains truth..

5-I cannot understand that which does not exist. I have the ability to choose because he does not even exist.

Says your fact checking ablities? Says your philosphy professor? Says a website you fancy???

Now we get to the infamous tree! Yes! The world's very first case of entrapment! Sorry, you are going to have to let them move back into the Garden because this case has been thrown out due to the malfeasance of the authorities. It's quite simple: Your sky-daddy is omnimax.

Uh, No. God is not 'omni-max.' That is unless you can use the bible and show me where it says God is 'Omni-max.'

He knew full well what would happen when he put that tree there. He knew that the snake would come along and entice Eve, who would in turn entice Adam.

Indeed, Hence Choice. He even allowed Satan to go in and tempt them/Making them aware of the choice they had.

Once that was done, their goose was cooked. And God knew what would happen. Entrapment. Not very nice behavior for an omnibenevolent creator, is it?

Two things. One the bible does not say God is omni benevolent. Matter of fact it says the oppsite. God loves His Children and to hell with the rest (literally.) John 3:16 says God's love is conditional. The OT is littered with examples of a God who only shows favor to His people.

Two. The story does not end in the garden. It ends at the cross where attonement for all sin is possiable.

Reading that book one easily comes to the conclusion that his poor little children are merely playthings for a malevolent super being who delights in “smiting” his creations at every least opportunity. Your god has some serious anger-control issues

Only for those outside of Grace.

First you had Adam and Eve, then the Noachian flood (let's destroy everything and everyone on the planet because I'm in a bad mood!), the whole silly tower of Babel thing, destroying Sodom for being like any city is going to be. Then comes one of my favorites, Lot's wife gets turned into a pillar of salt for the high crime of turning and looking back at the city that had been her home. What a terrible thing to do! And don't you think that the whole business with Egypt was kind of overdone? We could go on forever, but what for? You slough all the atrocities in the OT off because of your beliefs. You have too much invested in this notion of he is the one true god and you do not dare to question what is in there, or to recognize that it is atrocious. You are blind to the life-denying ugliness of it all.

You assume too much I embrace all God has done to bring us to this state of free grace.

6-Actually I was programmed in some big institution, the Roman Catholic church. I was in their clutches for 12 years, primary and secondary school. Getting out from under the influence of that brainwashing was no mean feat. You don't get out without some damage that will never go away. As for thinking about God or the bible your way, why would I want to? It isn't real.

I do not disagree with you here. Your understand of God (if it is solely based in Roman catholicism) does not repersent the God of the bible, and therefore can not be 'real.' For Catholics have allow their church leaders to rewrite the bible to include non canonical decrees and law. (they superceeded what the bible said with what the pope believes.)

That said the programing I was talking about was the programing that has you attack 'christianity' the same exact way millions of other people just like you has.

7-OK, what if the being is not imaginary? Well, he sure has been doing a damned good job of making it look like he is.

To who, you? Have you become the yard stick in which all things have been measured? In otherwords just because God does not bend over backwards to grant you unlimited wishes, does not mean He is imaginary.

So just maybe he's trying to entrap all of us atheists. But I really don't think so.

-or- He knows there can not be a heart felt choice made about your eternal destiny, if you are aware of His glory and all that He has to offer you.
You will either be forced into belief as a matter of self perservation, or you will be bought by what He has to potentially offer.

It is not until you start your own personal relationship with God, that He opens your eyes ears and Heart to Him.

9-Yes, these ridiculous fairy tales are taking people's lives away. How does that make me “anti-conspiracy”? Huh?

Your begging the question here. Your anti conspiracy tendancies have nothing to do with the bible persay. your A/C/T places you in a position to use peer pressure (To liken anyone who disagrees with you) to an anti conspiracy nut job. (As proven by your statement below)

I am of the opinion that conspiracy theorists are a bit loony, and I was only using them as a way of showing that you will see things according to what it is you will believe. So this really does not follow.

It follows so closly to my orginal assessment you cant see it.

10-Even if you were correct about the existence of hell, what possible good could come from traumatizing very young children with these graphic descriptions of hell? What is with you people that you would want to do that? There is no excuse.

But forcing 5 year old to be sexually educated in order to "Accuratly report sexual abuse" isn't traumatic?

I do not agree with the R/C model of Hell nor do I believe Hell should be used to force people into the church, but Hell is real and it should be fully taught and understood.

11-Context be damned. In fundamentalist Xtianity women don't count for squat.

According to whom?

They're just there to do as they are told, bear kids and keep house. Women do not get to be full human beings in this scenario. The men get everything. He's in charge. He decides. He always gets a pass. Love their wives? Maybe they do, but it is still a patriarchy. .

If one loves as He has been commanded, then a patriarchy is not synomous with a dictatorship or monarchy. Placing one ahead of the house hold is Christianity is purposed in such a way as to hold the someone accountable for the Spiritual Health of everyone in said house hold.

I don't treat my wife like that. We are partners, equally. It's our household, our marriage, our mutual life together. Nobody is “more equal than others”. Anything else would be repugnant to us.

It is my wish for you that you continue to live in a place/time that allows you option to live and work as equals. However if life does not afford you the oppertunity to allow your household two masters, then know repugnant or not, the leadership from one of the two marriage partners does indeed work. Or so say thousands of years of human history.

12-That is such a load of stuff and nonsense. For starters, whatever was the necessity of this hideous blood sacrifice that Jesus is supposed to have made ? They never did explain that one to me.

You've never heard: "The wages of sin is death." That means the only righteous punishment for sin, the only attonement for sin is death.

Those damnable nuns telling us over and over “He died for your sins!” We were little kids ffs! What the hell were we supposed to have done? That is no way to treat children. But anyway, as it stands now, I only have to say that if he wanted to do that, that's his look-out. This happened 2000 years ago. I had nothing to do with it. I do not even accept the concept of sin.

Then why spend so much time argueing it?

That's bullshit. There is right and wrong, yes. We can figure that out by ourselves, thank you.

Do you think the death camp Nazis thought they were doing wrong? If you cared to look past the "I was just following orders." You would see the point or purpose to their actions. It was much like the reasoning used to justify the wholesale slaughter of the native americans just 100 years prior..

Without the absolute standard of sin, 'right and wrong' become a sliding scale, justified by a given soceity. For a soceity can always justify it's deeds, making right and wrong relitive.

And why your omnimax deity had to take a little side-trip down to planet earth and get himself killed in order to cleanse the earth of humankind's sins is beyond me. What was the necessity of a blood sacrifice to himself!?? Will someone please explain that one? This is some seriously twisted stuff.

Christ died so you did not have to.

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14-Some people are gay. They just are. Some people are bi, and others are transgendered. It happens. Why do you want to make their lives even more difficult by giving them a hard time about it? I've got it easy, I'm a white heterosexual male with a wife and 4 grown kids. That saved me a lot of aggravation and pain.

Did you not read my response or did you not understand it? Homosexuality is a sexual sin like any other. Whether your sexual sin of choice leans to homosexuality or heterosexuality, the damnable offence is still sexual sin. As such all sexual sin require one to repent of those sins.

To not identify homosexuality as a sexual sin is to condemn the homosexual to Hell.

What these people have to put up with from self-righteous intolerant people who want to label them as being wrong just for being is unconscionable. To do this to them is just plain fucking wrong. What is it to you (or your god) who these people love, or how they express their gender identity? How are they hurting you, me or anyone? They are just trying to live, dammit. Why can't you just let them?

Because I do not hate them to the point of wanting to see them or anyone else consumed by Hell fire, unless it is their choice to do so.

That act requires that I identify sin, and call the sinner to repent of that sin. Justifying sin leads to self righteousness and even a sense of entitlement and or pride of sin, which is a damnable offense in God's eyes.

15-Bollocks. You bloody xtians wrap your whole lives around this identity of yours.

Maybe those in the R/C Church do, but the R/C church does not repersent the whole of Christianity.

16-Terminating a pregnancy is not killing a baby. A non-viable fetus is not a baby. What I love most is how these holy rollers make all this noise about the “right to life” but don't want to provide a social safety net to the kids once they are here.

So, late term partial birth abortions, are.. Not killing babies?

17-I was referring to the case of Savita Halappanavar, who died in a hospital in Ireland.

No you weren't you sighted one example to justify all others.

What a crock! The US has been fighting a never ending fight over sex ed for adolescents. OK, adolescents. It does not work. It has increased teen pregnancy. All because these religious fuckwads are afraid their kids might actually act like kids. The horror! <shudder>

f you wish to live in a celestial North Korea, be my guest. Just keep your iron age beliefs off my law books.

What happened to being an independant thinker? Or are you saying you need the goverment to teach YOUR 4 kids about sex and buy condoms for them? What is wrong with you taking responsiablity for your brood and I mine? Why do you feel it nessary to manidate that the goverment be the one who decides for everyone when their kids should know about sex?