(June 16, 2013 at 7:47 pm)bennyboy Wrote:(June 15, 2013 at 9:54 pm)whatever76 Wrote: Are there atheists that know God exists? If not, what is the value in making the distinction between knowing and believing?
I would say that if one is not willing to say his position constitutes "knowledge," then he doesn't really believe it: at best, he has a strong personal hunch. If you ask a Christian if they know God exists, they'll answer strongly in the affirmative; if they do not, they aren't really Christian. Nor in the case of any sensible atheist is the jury actually out on the existence of God; this stance of (willing to change opinion if evidence is presented) is BS-- the person not only lacks a belief in God, but also a belief that the God idea can be framed in a way that allows for meaningful evidence to be produced.
Repeat after me-- "I believe there are no gods."
I agree with you. Intelligent arguments I've seen for theism focus on the point that atheists have a very narrow definition of knowing, one that doesn't really make sense in light of who or what God is being defined as. Whereas the atheist will argue that the theist's "knowledge" is too vague.
I remember asking a guy who was a very faithful Christian how he had come to know God existed. He said that he had prayed one night that if God were real, he would wake him at a certain time the next morning. I didn't think it was a very good proof for obvious reasons, certainly not good enough to end up believing in the literal truth of the Bible (which he did). Most other stories I've heard (including ones I've told myself) have something to do with odd coincidences-- synchronicity-- that have lead the person to conclude that the universe is conscious.
If I were to give a definition of "Belief" it would be a claim that is taken as self-evident-- i.e. a presupposition. The theist goes off the premise that God does exist. We could say that anyone who doesn't start from that position is an atheist. The premise of the atheist, IMO, is no premise ("I don't know"). Belief always ends up in circular reasoning.
