Question from an agnostic

[chrisNub]

Hello everyone, I'm new to the forums. I consider myself agnostic but I also consider myself to be a bit of an idiot (seriously).  It seems to me that quite a lot of athiests are pretty smart and I have a question I would like to ask.

If this reality were a simulation then there could be a base reality that we are unaware of that has no god. In this scenario would the creators and rulers of our simulation not be considered gods from our perspectives? or if this is base reality, I think it's possible that one day mankind could also create a simulation where the creators could be considered gods by the people inhabiting the simulation. I'm not saying anything either way other than it's just weird to think about.

For example IMO it's possible hypothetically that this is a prison of sorts, where our memories have been wiped and we suffer in all kinds of ways that we wouldn't have in base reality. Or if this is base reality, one day it might be more efficient to grow humans to adulthood and because they have a lot to learn their minds might be put into a simulation, while they grow, where they can learn and live out whole lives. Obviously these ideas sound crazy but it is interesting IMO how little we actually know (with absolute certainty) about our own reality.

I'm not atheist because it isn't obvious to me that this reality isn't a simulation and if this were a simulation then its creators would be our gods I figure because there's no difference between believing in a god in a religious way (in the sense that an intelligence started our universe and created it's rules) and believing that we are living in a simulation that was created by an intelligence. So if science finds strong evidence that our reality is a simulation then aren't they providing evidence for the existence of god (or gods)? I guess it depends how you would define a god but to me it's exactly the same but maybe i'm trip'n. I really want feedback from an atheists perspective on this. Thanks for reading

[The Grand Nudger]

Welcome aboard.  You'll find that most of the atheists here are agnostics, like yourself.  

As to your conjecture..I;d note that it relies on a less than subtle conflation of a programmer with a god.  If I made a little simulated world for some little simulated creatures that wouldn't make me anything other than what I am.  A human being.  The similarity between me and a god..even in that scenario..is superficial at best.

What about the larger context of the conjecture though?  The idea that we're living in a simulation, or may be?  You'll find that people inevitably refer to ways in which simulations are similar to our universe.  Some people take this to be a profound comment on the state of the universe but..to me, it;s almost a no shit statement about the mundanity of simulations.  They are, after all..made in our universe, and explicitly for the purposes of simulation.  

So, in summary...no, it wouldn't alter my position on the status of my belief in gods at all if we were living in a simulation created by some incredible programmer..even though I don't think we are.  It doesn't even have the ass to affect my position on the status of my knowledge. True or not, I'd still be a gnostic atheist.

[LadyForCamus]

PGJ? Is that you?

[chrisNub]

Thanks Khemikal for the reply. I think that you are right, simulation or not, it doesn't really matter or change anything. Thanks for saying that most atheists are agnostic because I didn't know that, that's very interesting. Another thing I have thought is that if this reality is a simulation then the creators might be very intelligent compared to ourselves and might not be what we would consider human and humans beings might themselves be an artificial construct. A bit like mice being put into a simulation by scientists that think they are something else. But I really am going down a crazy path thinking about this. All hypothetical conjecture and a bit silly =)

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PGJ?  Is that you?

I'm not sure what PGJ stands for but I don't think so.

[The Grand Nudger]

No need to refer to a simulation.  There are other people who are vastly more intelligent than me here on this world, lol.  Though, I have to say..why don;t we at least give equal time to the notion that the "creators" of our hypothetical simulated realities might be real big dummies?

It might help explain a few things about the simulation.

I think we can find plenty of instances of that in this world too.  I bet the natives of long-gone-istan marveled at the coming of the advanced colonists.  Then, come winter, they died like scrubs.  Starving in an environment that local children skipped stones in out of comfortable boredom.

[chrisNub]

No need to refer to a simulation.  There are other people who are vastly more intelligent than me here on this world, lol.  Though, I have to say..why don;t we at least give equal time to the notion that the "creators" of our hypothetical simulated realities might be real big dummies?

It might help explain a few things about the simulation.

I think we can find plenty of instances of that in this world too.  I bet the natives of long-gone-istan marveled at the coming of the advanced colonists.  Then, come winter, they died like scrubs.  Starving in an environment that local children skipped stones in out of comfortable boredom.

That's a good point, maybe our hypothetical creator really messed things up lol but then again I won't necessarily assume that our hypothetical creator was particularly benevolent at all honestly.

[brewer]

Howdy chris.

Why do you think that this existence needs a creator? That seems to be what a simulation implies.

[Foxaèr]

OP: you said, "if". I personally only deal with ifs when writing fiction. Otherwise, in reality, I deal with certainties.

[chrisNub]

Howdy chris.

Why do you think that this existence needs a creator? That seems to be what a simulation implies.

Oh I don't. I didn't mean to suggest that we are necessarily in one but I thought the idea that humans might be capable of creating a simulation so realistic that it's indistinguishable from real life was interesting and to the people inside the simulation it might seem like the creators and controllers of the simulation are gods, especially if they aren't allowed to leave for some reason. The idea got me thinking, what is the definition of a god? Then I thought about Elon Musk and his thoughts about the likelihood of us being in a simulation right now, he thinks there's a billion to 1 chance we're in a simulation (I hope I said that the right way around but what I meant was: he thinks we are in a simulation basically). Not that I really understood his logic for reaching that conclusion. I didn't. Long story short I have no idea if we are in a simulation. I'm not saying anything really other than that I think the concept of what is a god? is an interesting one and one day humans might be considered literal gods if they gain absolute power over others in a simulation and I guess they would be gods, to those people.

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OP: you said, "if".  I personally only deal with ifs when writing fiction.  Otherwise, in reality, I deal with certainties.

Fair enough bro, I am a bit of a twat to think about this stuff tbh. Not that I can help myself.

[brewer]

Howdy chris.

Why do you think that this existence needs a creator? That seems to be what a simulation implies.

Oh I don't. I didn't mean to suggest that we are necessarily in one but I thought the idea that humans might be capable of creating a simulation so realistic that it's indistinguishable from real life was interesting and to the people inside the simulation it might seem like the creators and controllers of the simulation are gods, especially if they aren't allowed to leave for some reason. The idea got me thinking, what is the definition of a god? Then I thought about Elon Musk and his thoughts about the likelihood of us being in a simulation right now, he thinks there's a billion to 1 chance we're in a simulation (I hope I said that the right way around but what I meant was: he thinks we are in a simulation basically). Not that I really understood his logic for reaching that conclusion. I didn't. Long story short I have no idea if we are in a simulation. I'm not saying anything really other than that I think the concept of what is a god? is an interesting one and one day humans might be considered literal gods if they gain absolute power over others in a simulation and I guess they would be gods, to those people.

In your simulation scenario the creation of the simulation would take a lot of time and effort (at least it would for me). What do you think the creators motivation would be to create world with such imperfections?  A world which often destroys the creations.