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The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit?
#29
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit?
(July 24, 2013 at 6:49 am)Red Celt Wrote: There seems to be some confusion about the golden rule. Some seem to be mistaking it for rule utilitarianism. Others, still, are analysing every word in a legalistic sense, rather than the philosophical sense that it was originally intended.

The terminology of doing unto others (and not doing unto others) is about reciprocity.

Tsze-kung asked, saying, "Is there one word which may serve as a rule of practice for all one's life?" The Master said, "Is not Reciprocity such a word? What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others."

— Confucius, Analects XV.24


And this is in the spirit of reciprocity. You may treat someone within the concepts of the golden rule, with the full knowledge that you will probably never meet them again for the duration of their life or yours. But that doesn't matter. You have contributed to society (no matter how small that contribution is) so as to make it more reciprocal, not less. And that reciprocity can be contagious. If you doubt that, you'll certainly be less doubtful that treating someone like a cunt will make that person a whole lot less likely to be pleasant to the next person that they meet.

OK. Taking it away from the precise wording of the original philosophers who (if they lived today) would provide sub-clauses and explanations for the less philosophical...

You're male. You're on a bus. The bus is fully occupied. A pregnant woman boards the bus. Without any seats, she is standing in the aisle, doing her best to support herself as the bus moves.

Now, Confucius wouldn't be confused about what you should do next. It isn't a matter of treating others as if you were them. You're male. You can't get pregnant. There's no reason for you to stand up and let her have your seat. At least not if you don't understand the concept of the golden rule.

As has already been said, the key to the golden rule is empathy. What would you want to happen if you were her? If you were (obviously and visibly) pregnant? If you were tired from carrying the extra weight? If you were painfully holding onto the rail, to prevent yourself from falling? If you saw people all around you who looked like they would have none of the same problems that you were having? Would you want one of them to stand up to give you their seat?

The golden rule works on empathy and knowledge. With a complete stranger, your knowledge will be limited. With someone you know well - whose wishes and needs you are very familiar with, your knowledge is greater, therefore your ability at applying the golden rule is better... because empathy is easier.

Here's the problem. Reciprocity is actually a much more sensible concept than the golden rule. If I am being nice to you, I do expect you to be nice right back. I don't do it with the expectation that you'd be nice to the next person which would somehow come around to someone down the line being nice to me. I don't do it to contribute anything to the society. I'm doing it because I expect you to be nice right back. If there is a chance of a relationship to be cultivated - and there always is - everything else being equal, I prefer to start with a positive exchange of niceties. Its a simple, selfish motive and if you are not nice to me right back, I no longer have any obligation to do the same.

The golden rule doesn't address that. It doesn't tell you whether or not you can actually expect others to do unto you - it simply tells you to do unto others regardless. And at this point of divergence from reciprocity, the golden rule loses its justification. Confucius may keep saying that I should continue doing unto others despite no expectation of them doing unto me, but why should I?

This leads to the second problem. While under trivial circumstances, the satisfaction of empathetic instincts is reason enough follow the golden rule, that reward is usually negligible when the stakes are higher. It is one thing to help an old woman cross the street because she wants you to and quite another to pay her medical bills. We commonly find that the greater the impact of an action on our life, the less likely we are to follow the golden rule in that regard.

Take your pregnant woman's example. While I don't expect that she'd return the favor, I do have certain expectations out of it. I expect that any extra discomfort I go through due to standing up to be more than made up by the emotional gratification. Which is why if I happened to board the bus tired or with luggage, sorry lady, you ain't getting my seat. I also expect gratitude from her. So if she says to me "About time, I was standing for five minutes already" - I would instantly regret giving my seat up.

(July 24, 2013 at 7:52 am)Red Celt Wrote: There is no such thing as objective morality.

That's debatable.

(July 24, 2013 at 7:52 am)Red Celt Wrote: Humanity doesn't work on black and white. We work on so many shades of grey. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to behave... there is the best way to behave. The golden rule gives us that.

And what makes it the "best"?
Reply



Messages In This Thread
The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 23, 2013 at 2:05 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 23, 2013 at 3:29 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 23, 2013 at 5:04 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by pocaracas - July 23, 2013 at 5:27 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 23, 2013 at 5:58 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by pocaracas - July 23, 2013 at 8:30 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 23, 2013 at 9:42 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 24, 2013 at 3:55 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 24, 2013 at 8:08 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 25, 2013 at 4:54 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 25, 2013 at 5:54 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 25, 2013 at 6:22 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 25, 2013 at 6:43 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 25, 2013 at 6:50 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 6:47 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 26, 2013 at 11:41 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 23, 2013 at 2:43 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 23, 2013 at 3:14 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Kayenneh - July 23, 2013 at 3:23 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 23, 2013 at 5:51 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by pocaracas - July 23, 2013 at 10:06 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 23, 2013 at 11:26 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 24, 2013 at 6:49 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 24, 2013 at 7:21 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 24, 2013 at 7:52 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 24, 2013 at 1:10 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 24, 2013 at 9:58 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 24, 2013 at 11:26 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 24, 2013 at 11:52 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 25, 2013 at 12:52 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 1:06 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 25, 2013 at 2:51 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 4:44 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 24, 2013 at 11:28 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Chas - July 24, 2013 at 11:37 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 24, 2013 at 11:44 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 24, 2013 at 10:39 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 24, 2013 at 11:08 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 24, 2013 at 11:21 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 6:03 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 7:02 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 25, 2013 at 7:11 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 25, 2013 at 7:30 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 7:31 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 25, 2013 at 8:12 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 8:18 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 25, 2013 at 9:11 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 10:24 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Rahul - July 25, 2013 at 11:06 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 11:42 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Rahul - July 25, 2013 at 11:53 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 12:12 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Rahul - July 25, 2013 at 12:19 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 12:23 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Rahul - July 25, 2013 at 12:37 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 12:47 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Rahul - July 25, 2013 at 12:51 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 1:37 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 26, 2013 at 3:09 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 26, 2013 at 4:17 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 25, 2013 at 1:51 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 1:57 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 25, 2013 at 2:06 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 2:14 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Rahul - July 25, 2013 at 2:36 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 25, 2013 at 3:03 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Rahul - July 25, 2013 at 5:44 pm
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 26, 2013 at 2:11 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 25, 2013 at 10:50 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by genkaus - July 25, 2013 at 10:42 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 25, 2013 at 9:23 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Magnum - July 26, 2013 at 3:18 am
RE: The Golden Rule ? Sense or Bullshit? - by Red Celt - July 26, 2013 at 3:35 am

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