Religion and pleasure

[Esquilax]

Well, even if you do, I'm not sure you'll persist when faced with a choice of sacrificing your own "simple pleasures" and whatever greater purpose you've taken on. It is the impression I've gotten from the lot of the atheists I know.

Blanket statements are dumb. (Yay! )

And I stress the term "atheists" because the term seems to be your primary means ot self-identification before anything else, so I will continue to use this term until the discussion sees its final words.

It's my primary means of identification here, where religious beliefs are generally the centerpiece of conversation, and during conversations of a religious nature, as I imagine it is for most other atheists here. But it's not what we're all about; I generally go by Ryan, whenever I'm not specifically wearing my atheist hat. The point is, I have many others.

I'm like a haberdasher.

The thing is, due to the fact that you believe that upon death, it's all over for you, you don't really see much of a point in participating in things that exceed your lifetime.
If there is a certain reason for you to do so, tell me.

Because we all have a responsibility to future generations; my life might end, but I have people I care about who will persist after me, not least of which the children I intend to have, and I owe it to them, and to the rest of my species, to leave the world in a better state than I entered it.

But let's flip the script: you believe in an afterlife, that this world is merely a pitstop on the way to eternity. What reason do you have to care about this transient world? There are actual US politicians that have used this exact argument with regards to why we shouldn't care about the environment, so it's not like I've got no basis for any of this.

But please note, I'm not actually putting these questions out there seriously, because I'm not presumptuous enough to claim knowledge about entire groups of people based upon the few of them that I know and my own biases.

I know this from my own parents. They'd love to think they care about politics and the way the country is going, but when I decide that I wish to be more active in political life, in pursuit of a definite ideal, they come to tell me that I ought to forget about these things and live my life.

Great! And so from those two people, you decide you know what every atheist ever is motivated by. Awesome. Ever think that maybe this "problem" is yours? That maybe you should get that massive self important stick out your ass and stop appointing yourself the arbiter of everyone else's self worth?

At the very least, the issue you have is with your parents, not with atheism.

What form of evidence do you really expect from me? I'm telling you about the impression I've gotten from the atheists that I've known in my lifetime, including the people here.

Did you actually ask before you proclaimed these things, or were you just collecting opinions based on pre-existing biases you already had? Because factual things are demonstrated, not just asserted; you've essentially denigrated an entire class of people based on nothing but... what? A swing round a forum- let's all remember that the internet is a bastion of class and serious conversation, all of the time- and interactions with your friends.

Clearly, a wonderful sample, with which to make your broad, sweeping statements.

No, it wouldn't, because there is a difference, else I'd obviously not choose the greater joys over the smaller ones, while persevering through periods of sadness and pain, which means, patience.

Maybe you're just a joyless groundswell of gloom, hoarding your sacrifice like it's your ticket into heaven.

However, atheists generally do not show this patience too much, since they think that their time is limited, they rush things, they are impatient. This is why they lose faith in things very easily.

Do me a favor: in your mind, replace the word "atheist" with the words "black people," or "Jews," or "gays," or "women." You see how much of an asshole you sound, there?

I'm not an atheist, I'm a university student that has faced expulsion from school for my views, threats of violence from fellow students and monetary problems just to print a magazine.

Yes, I didn't think I'd be the only one to find you to be an insufferable, self righteous jerk.

If I were as you, bent on enjoying myself, I'd certainly quit. I'd go through university just like the other guys, and perhaps end up in America or Europe some day.

Before you peg me as "bent on enjoying myself," I have to ask, do you know me? Have we met?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Legitimate, yes they are. But I've never really judged you for that.
I simply have stated why I think that atheists as I think they are.

And the fact that your fundamental assumption about what atheists "are" is wrong never bothered you when you did it, which is the problem I have.

And don't give me that crap about not judging, that's all you were doing: you were putting whatever actions you've chosen on some pedestal, calling it a greater cause, while accusing atheists of not having the fortitude or wherewithal to do the same. Don't compound idiocy with dishonesty.

I never expected such a thing. But while I see hedonism as morally wrong, you simply don't.

Don't tell me what my morals are.

Well, I can find plenty of things to like in my own life too. And I do have certain things that I like to do. I like to draw, I like to discuss politics and actually have joined this site to get to know people around the globe a little better. These are my little joys. But ultimately, they are not really meaningful beyond the moment they're done in. And when you are dead and underground they'll be lost with you, at least, according to your belief.

Which in no way undercuts the enjoyment you experienced when you did them. And if you're doing them right, you're sharing them with others, enhancing their day to day experiences too. Life's not just a mark you make on the future, it's made up of those day to day, transient experiences too. They're the memories you share with others, the practice that hones your skills, the myriad tiny ways you touch the lives of others. So what if I can't enjoy them when I'm dead?

These things are meaningful in that when I'm at the end of my life I'll be able to look back at the memories I've made, the fun I've had and the people I had it with, and be happy. This isn't about hedonism, it's about emotional fulfillment.

My point is this, since atheists always do not look beyond their lifetimes, they generally see no point in looking back in their history, or having a vision that drives them to do better things for the future.

My point is this: quit making offensive blanket statements.

The only way they contribute to the future is having a child, which is in itself a way for them to have a taste of a greater joy in life, though some still exchange it for greater sexual freedom and less responsibilities, again, with the same reasoning. I'm here for a limited amount of time, why really bother to spend my time on someone else, when I can spend it on myself.

Does the fact that you're just manifestly wrong on every conceivable level even bother you? Case in point: the last Prime Minister my country had was an atheist.

Well, no such person would waste time in an internet forum.

You're here, ain't you?

Well, I've heard it from other people here numerous of times that people are not born with a purpose. So according to them, the default human is a man that has no purpose other than the purpose that he has by simply existing there.

Or, to put it accurately, you make your own purpose. Turn it to good, turn it to bad, turn it to nothing much at all, the beauty in life is in the blank ticket you were handed upon birth; your life is as you make it.

Besides, my purpose is not bound to me alone. It's a "greater purpose" whom I follow, I did not create it, I did not elaborate on it, I only try to understand it, and live accoding to it.

And I hope you never grow to resent it. I myself, I found a cause that means something to me, some way to share my special skills with the those who need it: I teach people to read. Maybe it's not a world altering goal, maybe it only helps a few in small ways, but it's important to me, and it's sure as hell important to the people I help. Best of all, I was the one who decided this.

Any purpose that I create for myself will ultimately end with me.

Not true. Take my personal example above: I teach a man to read, who otherwise couldn't. Now he's got a new skill, possibly a new interest too: at the very least, his prospects have gone up. His ability to function in the world has been enhanced. And maybe he teaches his kids, the same way I taught him. Maybe he gets a better job that might otherwise have been out of his reach, becomes successful. Helpful actions do persist beyond the individual, you know.

And hell, so what if you die and it ends with you? Isn't the fact that you've helped another person enough?

And the fact that you stressed above, that the past and future has no meaning other than being "history" is what drives you to accept a lesser purpose for your life, which is mostly to simply live for the sake of living.

Stop making assumptions about me and people like me. Should I be turning this into a song or something?

Well, if you do, you probably have the morals general society has. So do I. I don't make up my own moral standpoint, I simply understand the moral standpoint of society, and follow it.
You on the other hand reject many of the moral standpoints in whatver society you're in, and generally associate this with freedom(which I attribute to your general self-righteous attitude that stems from all the above mentioned points), and create your own set of morals, on which sometimes, you can't even agree on.

Can we all just revel in the irony of this guy calling someone else self righteous, for a moment?

In short, your morals are outlined by the laws in the countries you live in, and even in that case, you try to change these laws to suit your morals, instead of the morals of the general public.

Interesting: your implication here seems to be that majority rule determines what's moral. If I lived in a place where the morals of the general public dictated that a certain race of people be lynched, would it not be a moral imperative to try and change this?

Also, the idea of atheists as activists attempting to change the law according to their own moral compasses conflicts with your basic premise that atheists are lazy scofflaws, but then, nobody believes that you've thought your premise out enough to be a coherent thought anyway.

What? Is that too much for you to handle? Of course, you obviously can't comprehend the meaning of sacrifice, ideals, and living your life accoding to these ideals. You live your life according to yourself, which is, in my opinion, nothing.

Alright, I tried taking all this seriously, maybe addressing your points with some substance, but not anymore. You crossed the line. I'm going to need to call in some backup, here.

Hey Megaman, help me out!



Thanks, Megaman.