You know what really grinds my gears? RAPE-UBLICANS

[Statler Waldorf]

Your argument fails because rape is something done to a consciously self-aware person.

So you support rape as long as the victim is unconscious?

Abortion happens to a biological human fetus that has had no higher brain functions and never has so therefore has not attained personhood.

How do you those qualities are required in order to achieve personhood? Did you just make that up? Why isn’t a person just any living human being?

Is it human? Yep. Is there a person there yet? Nope.

How do you know this? According to my definition of a person, the fetus is a person, how am I wrong? I smell the use of self-serving but inconsistent definitions.

Second. Being denied the right to rape doesn't harm the would be rapist.

Sure it does, I am sure some rapists could experience some emotional hardship if denied the right to rape. Do I feel bad for them? Nope. Do I feel bad for women being denied the right to kill their babies? Nope. Does that make me a big meanie face?

Denying safe abortions to women kills and maims women.

So you’d save 47,000 people by killing 21,600,000 people? What kind of math is this?

So in the case of rape your advice would be to just suck it up and take one for the team?

Take one for the baby; mothers have done that for thousands of years prior to abortion on demand. Parents will endure a lot for the wellbeing and life of their children, and I praise them for it. However, I smell the red herring fallacy. Would you support illegalizing all abortions accept those pertaining to rape, incest, and the life of the mother?

Isn't that a little convenient if you're a male who may give way to the onset of reproductive maturity without going through nausea, swelling and ultimately having your pelvis split to give birth to a baby you never wanted?

There are numerous women who agree with my position, so another irrelevant point. Address the argument, not the arguer.

I would like you to work on addressing this unevenness. Failing that, I think we should both shut up and let the ladies decide what makes sense. They're the only ones with a dog in this fight.

Nope, that’s another ad hominem fallacy. We didn’t allow for slave owners to determine whether slavery was legal or not because, “after all they’re the only ones with a dog (a person viewed as their peroperty) in the fight!” The baby is just as much the male’s as it is the female’s (isn’t biology great?), so we have just as much say over its destiny. This is the 21st Century, time to relinquish the barbarism.

I believe you're fighting a losing battle, Statler. That's why I'm talking to you about this. I've been arguing the very stance you face.

No, more Americans are pro-life today than in any time since Roe. We have logic, morality, and science on our side, the other side can only make appeals to emotionalism.

For one, I discounted your comparison because the legality of when a person is a person is not defined as how you believe it should be. So the comparison is non sequiter, and an appeal to emotion, thus invalid.

Prove my definition of a person is wrong; do not merely assert it is.

The choice of saving herself or the baby should be hers.

That’s not how we do things in civilized societies; neither parent possesses the right to kill their innocent child. Think about what you are saying.

The way to this resolution barring of course: totalitarianism either direction, is free public funded contraception including the day after pill as well as support services provided to post rape victims, including access to the day after pill. If they refuse those services they should have to carry out the pregnancy through lack of another legal choice or file for an extension of decision making time.

That’s a possible alternative, although I would like to see more research on Plan B, the accepted position by the FDA is that it still causes an abortion, so you cannot reduce abortions by causing the same number of abortions. I would be open to a discussion about making abortions an emergency court-ordered procedure. That way they can still be available for all of the instances the pro-choice community always harps on, but they are not available as a means of birth control.

Wasting millions trying to draw a line in the sand is not the answer,

It worked for the abolitionists.

What would help is if Police could actually enforce the laws they represent. Like by processing those rape kits, getting the funding they need to do so. And giving a shit by actually prosecuting the big cases (like colleges) and taking the little cases just as serious. Girls shouldn't feel like no matter if they report or not, it wont matter. Thats what kept me from reporting in part. Why traumatize yourself anymore than you already are?

I agree with this.

I also think deterrants like an appeal panel where a woman must account for why the contraceptives and day after pill didn't work, along with receiving fines (as well as the father) for women who want abortions, is in order. Along with a limit on what term of pregnancy is too fargone for an abortion.

A step in the right direction, but probably not harsh enough, we’re talking about killing babies here.

Overall if a reasonable system is made for people to adhere to and is enforced accordingly, they will start to conform and prevalence of abortions will drop. In a perfect world they'd stop. Not in my perfect world, but our perfect world. For us as a species. We could just fight eachother about it for years more, or we could start the road to reformation and answers.

I think you underestimate the power of the pro-choice movement, just look at how many outdated and illogical arguments they still use. They do not care if they are right, all they care about is getting abortions.

I think it's more amusing that you can't see how your entire argument here is one big exercise in question begging. Unless we assume your conclusion that abortion is murder from the outset, everything you've said here doesn't make sense. And yet, regardless of the position we take on abortion, Luckie's arguments still work.

Not sure how you define murder, but it doesn’t really matter; the taking of an innocent human life is murder, so therefore abortion is murder. You cannot get around that no matter how hard you try.