I love religion!

[Zagreus]

Zagreus,

That is exactly my point, that religion is used for personal greed and other personal gains. Religion has been an excuse for countless generations of evil-doing. I am not against the few religious individuals who are good people but they should be able to do good without religion anyway. If you need religion to do good then that is insincere.

To sum it up, I am not against theists in general (minus the fundies of course) but I am against the concept of religion. Personally, I feel the world would do far better without it.

Re

No, the people are greedy and want personal gains, and then use religion as a justification. It’s the people that are to blame, not their excuses. The theory of natural selection itself is not responsible for the use of eugenics by the Americans, and then more tragically by the Nazis. Another example, Blair didn’t agree to invade Iraq because of his blossoming Catholicism and a desire to do moral good in helping the people of that country, he did it for oil.

If I said a religion was responsible for my robbing an old lady, would that stand up in court? No, it wouldn’t. I’m sure if we looked at some examples there would always be other motives for the ‘evil’ actions.

Also, you say the ‘few religious people who do good’. Do you seriously think the number of people who do wrong in the name of religion outnumbers those who do good? The number of Muslims who help others and give to the poor vastly outweighs the fanatics. Plus, if these people are inclined to do good, then of course they would do it regardless of religion. Your inference that they only do good due to faith is not far off saying they would be immoral without faith; many atheists prove that wrong.

I’m arguing against the idea that all religious people are just sheep with no thoughts for themselves, which is what the inference is from the idea that religion causes evil actions, and other people only do good if they are scared of being punished by God. Don’t get me wrong, I do think many people go along with religious ideas like sheep without question, but that is not to tar a belief system or theory with that brush.

Religion gives many people hope, a structure in which to live their life, and an explanation for the way that things are. It has been the reason for centuries of art, medicine, philosophy, and so on, and is the basis of our species’ history. The concept of religion is not a thing in itself that can cause good or evil, it is simply a set of beliefs upon which people act. Saying religion is bad, justifying it by some examples of religious people who have done wrong, and ignoring all the good things it brings about, is like saying communism is bad, giving the example of Stalin, and ignoring all the theoretically great ideas in communism.

Basically I’m saying I don’t think you can write off religion just because some people use it to justify immoral actions. There’s much more to the subject than that, but I do see where you’re coming from and have heard those ideas before. Maybe we’ll have to agree to disagree, unless you want to talk more?

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We are talking about people who literally believe that

a great big santa claus figure in the sky created the universe six thousand

years ago(despite ALL evidence to the contrary).

Is going to put the people of the world through months of torture(revelations)

And is prepared to condemm you to everlasting torment in hell

if you have a wank.

What exactly is there NOT to laugh at?????????

Again, that’s just fundamentalists. You can dress up any ideas and make them sound silly if you use language like that; it’s hardly a reasoned response against their beliefs. I’m not saying you can’t make jokes about it, but you are displaying a very one dimensional view of religion, and one that’s not accurate.

You are just missing the point of what I’m saying, which is that there is more to religion than many atheists necessarily consider. Many Hindu and Buddhist activities have measurable results, and the former’s theology is very developed and complex, partly because of the faith’s age. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the foundation of our western culture, and if people want to believe these ideas, then fair play to them.

Do you mock aborigines for their beliefs about the origins of the world too? You aren’t better than other people, so don’t delude yourself you are. Some people of the Abrahamic faith believe in creationism; however, many don’t, so don’t patronise them with your stereotyping. I’m not meaning to come across as having a go, but your blinkered view of religion is not much better than the blinkered view of fundamentalist religious people. Hopefully I’ll get to know you better on here and we’ll find some common ground, but your view on the subject so far seems a bit ill informed, if you’ll excuse me in saying so.

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"On Earth as it is in Heaven" Check the book section out on this forum.

I spotted that in your sig after I posted the question, then googled your book and it sounds intriguing! I will certainly pick up a copy soon when I can. The description of you sounds interesting too, in that it described you as a Biblical scholar (which is why I’ve perked up interest in your ideas). I saw that you have presented seminars at atheist events, and you seem well respected. It also said you don’t work in religious academia, but in more science based roles, so do you mind me asking what your credentials are that makes you a Biblical scholar? I presume other stuff published. I’m not questioning whether you are or not, I am genuinely interested.

If you want to watch Christians beat each other up, just ask them "What is the true nature or substance of God, or ask them to explain the trinity." It gets to be a hoot.

I claim religion started out as something that was logical and pre-scientific.

I’m very interested to read your claim. You are right on the questions for Christians also. When I was training to be a teacher I did a week training course on Christian beliefs, and half the class were Catholics. They were impossible to pin down on ideas, and seemed very wishy washy in my opinion. There was a Muslim chap in my group, and he was astounded by the way they dodged questions and couldn’t justify things.

I used to try to explain the trinity to students too. Past St Patrick’s explanation, I was a bit lost. I can just about get my head around it, but trying to explain it is impossible!

Religion teaches that it is not only okay to believe in things that there is no evidence for, it even presents that as a virtue, sometimes even as a prerequisite. I do not agree that religion is a lovely thing. As for your assertion that religion can't be separated from our species, I certainly contend that, as millions of people get along great without it.

No, many religious people teach that the followers should not question, and should believe in things that there is little evidence for. (A Muslim would argue the Qur’an is proof of God’s existence. I know that’s a circular argument, but I’ve seen it used. Therefore you can’t say there is NO evidence, but there is certainly no ‘scientific’ evidence.) Other religious people teach very differently, and it is more the western faiths that have this idea of unquestioning obedience. Don’t paint the teachings of Buddha, Guru Nanak or Sri Ramakrishna with the same negative view. Religion itself, fundamentally, is an attempt to understand and explain the world, and many aspects of it encourage personal development and expression of beauty, and has resulted in much amazing art, literature, architecture, actions and so on; so I still maintain it’s fascinating and ‘a lovely thing’ (I like that phrase).

Also, I still maintain religion cannot be separated. It is integral to our history, culture and belief systems. Even reading a religion section of an atheist forum shows it is having an influence. More importantly, it is the basis for many things that govern our lives. Look at the laws on euthanasia and abortion in your country. They are probably based on the idea of the sanctity of life, which is an idea stemming from religious ideas. Religion is everywhere, and is a fascinating subject; this I still insist is true, even if it’s only from my perspective.