RE: Yet another school shooting
August 25, 2013 at 10:30 am
(This post was last modified: August 25, 2013 at 10:34 am by Napoléon.)
Rather than respond to every sentence and turn this into a gigantic back and forth bollocks fest (not being insulting just saying), I'm just gonna respond in one go, if that's ok.
First off, I think people bring up the issue with guns for one reason, because it's something a lot of people seem to disagree on. Am I right? People could just as easily put forward that we need to do something about mental health issues (and they do, like yourself) with regards to solving the apparent problem, but I think everyone is already in agreement on that, so it's not something that will get brought up on a forum as much. Sure individual ideas can be discussed like you mention, but for the most part, everyone is already in agreement that helping to better mental health is a good idea.
Guns on the other hand seem to be a point of contention, at least from what I seem to see. The vibe that I get (as a foreigner, yes) is that there are many Americans with the 'gun-ho' attitude of "don't take away my guns, gun's aren't the problem, NRA, NRA!". Not saying everyone is like that, but it's precisely these particular people that make me want to speak up about it, and all my aim is, is to get people to realise that they are an issue. Maybe I'm doing a bad job, but I'm allowed to try, sorry if that makes me a deplorable human being with fucked up priorities.
It also doesn't mean I hate guns, guns are just pieces of material. The people with the brick wall attitude that they aren't something to do with the problem is what gets my goat, and again, it's for this reason I occasionally say my piece. IMO guns are brought up not because "the control lobby" or whatever you called it is so against them, or that they are fixated with removing people's rights or some other such bollocks, but I find it's simply because of the brazen ignorance certain others seem to display when 'defending' guns. From what I can tell, these are the only times I've ever personally got involved in conversations on the subject.
And most importantly, it also doesn't mean that I don't give a shit about those dead children.
You then seek to discredit me on the basis I haven't been as involved as you when discussing other possible solutions to the problem. Again, this doesn't make any of my points any less valid, just means you should give yourself and Brakeman and the other guy a pat on the back.
Your other point is that no one on the 'control lobby' side has any ideas.
Here's one.
Ban them.
Unlike a few other people I'm not of the opinion that gun ownership is a right, but that's just me, and it's my opinion. You're moaning that nobody is coming up with any ideas, but is the discussion even at that point? Last I checked not everyone even agreed that gun control was necessary, so before you start moaning that not enough ideas are being put forward, how about trying to argue that gun control is necessary in the first place, because it wasn't immediately clear to me from your first response that you were pro-control. But oh wait. I am arguing that. Other people are arguing that. But when they do, it's "oh noes a political agenda". Can't win.
The two things from wikipedia you listed just show incidents listed one after the other. Don't see the relevance of that. What does it prove? That gun incidents in secondary schools happen? Since when did anyone deny it? Maybe I'm missing something.
I'd have to say I agree with much of the final part of your post, about appealing to the opposition. But again, that doesn't seem to be the point of contention, not for me at least. My contention is when people act like guns are a non-issue, hence why the same arguments and trails of thought are always brought up, and no real tangible ideas are come up with like you rightly call for.
First off, I think people bring up the issue with guns for one reason, because it's something a lot of people seem to disagree on. Am I right? People could just as easily put forward that we need to do something about mental health issues (and they do, like yourself) with regards to solving the apparent problem, but I think everyone is already in agreement on that, so it's not something that will get brought up on a forum as much. Sure individual ideas can be discussed like you mention, but for the most part, everyone is already in agreement that helping to better mental health is a good idea.
Guns on the other hand seem to be a point of contention, at least from what I seem to see. The vibe that I get (as a foreigner, yes) is that there are many Americans with the 'gun-ho' attitude of "don't take away my guns, gun's aren't the problem, NRA, NRA!". Not saying everyone is like that, but it's precisely these particular people that make me want to speak up about it, and all my aim is, is to get people to realise that they are an issue. Maybe I'm doing a bad job, but I'm allowed to try, sorry if that makes me a deplorable human being with fucked up priorities.
It also doesn't mean I hate guns, guns are just pieces of material. The people with the brick wall attitude that they aren't something to do with the problem is what gets my goat, and again, it's for this reason I occasionally say my piece. IMO guns are brought up not because "the control lobby" or whatever you called it is so against them, or that they are fixated with removing people's rights or some other such bollocks, but I find it's simply because of the brazen ignorance certain others seem to display when 'defending' guns. From what I can tell, these are the only times I've ever personally got involved in conversations on the subject.
And most importantly, it also doesn't mean that I don't give a shit about those dead children.
You then seek to discredit me on the basis I haven't been as involved as you when discussing other possible solutions to the problem. Again, this doesn't make any of my points any less valid, just means you should give yourself and Brakeman and the other guy a pat on the back.
Your other point is that no one on the 'control lobby' side has any ideas.
Here's one.
Ban them.
Unlike a few other people I'm not of the opinion that gun ownership is a right, but that's just me, and it's my opinion. You're moaning that nobody is coming up with any ideas, but is the discussion even at that point? Last I checked not everyone even agreed that gun control was necessary, so before you start moaning that not enough ideas are being put forward, how about trying to argue that gun control is necessary in the first place, because it wasn't immediately clear to me from your first response that you were pro-control. But oh wait. I am arguing that. Other people are arguing that. But when they do, it's "oh noes a political agenda". Can't win.
The two things from wikipedia you listed just show incidents listed one after the other. Don't see the relevance of that. What does it prove? That gun incidents in secondary schools happen? Since when did anyone deny it? Maybe I'm missing something.
I'd have to say I agree with much of the final part of your post, about appealing to the opposition. But again, that doesn't seem to be the point of contention, not for me at least. My contention is when people act like guns are a non-issue, hence why the same arguments and trails of thought are always brought up, and no real tangible ideas are come up with like you rightly call for.
