I love religion!

[LukeMC]

I'm very annoyed. Accidentally hit refresh and lost my response.

No, I didn’t mean religious convictions, I meant just generally. I might have not been clear here, so I apologise. However, I will say that neither of us are clear of these shackles, and to give you a personal example, I am in England, which is technically a Christian country. I was educated in a state school, which all used to be run by the church. I had to do RE at school, 60% of which had to be Christian. Many people that I studied at school, and after, were religious, so their views have indirectly affected my learning. Some of the laws in my country are based on religious ideas; sanctity of life is the basis of our laws on euthanasia and abortion, for example. Tony Blair was a Christian, who after resigning became a Catholic, so someone who was religious was deciding laws and governing my country. Do you see? It’s inescapable, and I find it interesting.

Thanks for the elaboration on your point, I see exactly where you're coming from now. I too am in England and grew up singing hymns in primary school. My contention is that we could potentially as a society break from these influences as we become more secular as a whole. To make such a claim would be bold of me, but given sufficient time I'm sure it is in some way achievable. You seem only to be concered with our present day ties though, in which case I'm in full agreement with you.

There’s also recent research that I need to look into that suggests that religious belief and experience could also be biological (certain centres in the brain are more active in the very religious). I can’t comment on this yet, but it will be a new thing for me to get into soon. If it is biological, then it’s a bit inescapable.

Such findings would be very profound. I'd be interested in the reactions of the religious. "We has better brains than u stupid atheists =p"

Having said that, it is mostly religious history that interests me, as I think it has had an overwhelming impact on the development of our species. How can you not love something like that?!?

Ah, how the Dark Ages fill me with glee...

I’m also saying there is more to religion than is necessarily apparent to someone who dismisses the ideas as superstitions. I don’t want to escape it, I want to understand it. Tibetan Buddhist monks who spend years battling demons on the astral plane are not just idiots, they are, I think, exploring parts of the mind that western science does not know about yet. If they stopped doing this, we would lose that information. If you’re interested in this line of conversation I can go on, but that’s enough to illustrate my point for now.

You'll receive a PM shortly.

1) Primitive people were not necessarily less moral, or less intelligent than we are today; far from it. Morals are, in my opinion, subjective, and also reflections of thought at the time. They just had varying standards, and this is evident throughout history. Actions are simply actions, and whilst we may disagree with some ancient moral actions, it does not make them intrinsically wrong. Was it right to marry a 13 year old girl then, is it wrong now? Is sodomy ok now, but not then? I’m sure you know this too, but primitive people are/were not less intelligent too; brain size, etc, is the same – there is just more accumulation of information generation by generation.

In retrospect, I probably should have written "by todays standards" somewhere in my comment. I'm with you on this one.

2) People on the whole are not of the same intellectual capacity, but this does not lead to fundamentalism. I don’t think this is what you are saying, but I wanted to clarify anyway – people of less intelligence are not necessarily to be more fundamentalist in their beliefs. There are some very intelligent fundamentalists, and no doubt some very thick atheists.

I don't think I implied such. There are, however, a number of correlation studies regarding religiousity and IQ, religiosity and acceptance of science, etc. Of course, the findings wouldn't imply an absolute link between the two factors, and I agree that intellect and fundamentalism don't necessarily share a causal link.

Why people take on fundamentalist view is a complex issue, and one that I’m developing an interest in. On the other forum I participate on I have read whole threads where people are belligerently ignoring what is being said and persisting in saying that there is no evidence for evolution. Why do people do this? Is it psychological? It’s not the religious ideas that are to blame, as they are simply ideas, it is the people involved. Why do some people illogically (in my opinion) also act in a racist or homophobic manner?

If you haven't taken a degree in psychology yet, please do so immediately. We need you on the team

I find it interesting too, but only so much as to invoke speculation. It would be interesting to see more research findings and personal testimonies regarding these situations.

Too true. What better way to break fundamentalist attitudes than to show respect and knowledge about their ideas, but to show them they are wrong and that their views are not those within their faith?

Fundamentalists can be quite stubborn. Perhaps this characteristic is how they got where they are. I recently made a new friend who turned out to be a Mormon fundamentalist. After much debate, she openly admitted that if she was presented all of the available evidence right in front of her eyes she still wouldn't accept it. To her "it doesn't make sense" that "we came from apes" and she can't come to grips with it. She also believes that homosexuality is "unnatural" and cannot cognitively process the fact that it occurs in nature and comes about by natural causes and hence is natural. The very concept of what is "natural" doesn't seem to click in her mind. She just regurgitates what her family and church friends have told her. As a case-study, I'd say she shows a huge lack of cognitive ability and a great deal of stubborn-ness. She literally cannot wrap her head around anything that doesn't confirm her worldview. She cannot "enterain an idea without accepting it", so to speak.

There's also the "I still believe it, even though you've proven it ridiculous and I have no argument to back up my assertion" wall that fundamentalists such as my friend put up.

No, they can be left with their faith, as long as it doesn’t affect other people.

Fair point, I overlooked this.

Thanks for your reply, Luke, I enjoyed reading it.

Thank you too. I'm enjoying this also.