What Was Before ' the Beginning '....?

[Esquilax]

Look at the vast complexity of the universe, of life and exact level of precise perfect natural balance required to achieve this level of development. You think this was random unintentional chance? Come get a bit serious here. I'm not even going into all the other different kinds of evidence you're ignoring on sight.

There is so much wrong with this. First of all, you're committing an argument from ignorance and and argument from personal incredulity: your inability to figure this stuff out doesn't mean your simpleton's answer is the correct one.

Secondly, as I've told you multiple times, asserting that everything is in perfect balance just means you're lying, because the actual facts detail a universe that is amazingly chaotic and random.

Thirdly, your continued recourse to "random, unintentional chance" is similarly dishonest, because there's more than just chance involved: each and every development in the universe is scaffolded by those developments that have come before, consequences flowing from one state of matter to another. All of those developments are supported by the predictable ways in which the laws of physics function. To characterize this as random just shows how little you actually understand the universe you claim to know the secrets of.

I'm serious: you know next to nothing about science, all the while claiming to know everything. It's just embarrassing.

Yes there is evidence it's all around you hidden in plain sight. You don't want to see what you don't want to see that's whats happening here.

Uh huh, which is why you didn't present any beyond your own ignorance, and instead went to the standard, dishonest god wad trick of jut reinterpreting my motivations. Grow the fuck up, you damn child.

That God is you may as well define the shape of the Earth as a cube than define him as something that is not the creator of the universe. You just wouldn't be factually right if you define it differently. Yes there is some flexibility in the specifics say monotheism, trintarianism, panentheism, monism or whatever.

I... I just don't really care. Define god however you want, it doesn't get you any closer to demonstrating it.

Deductive reasoning, historical evidence, logic, philosophy, personal experience and faith. Science is neutral but personally I see revealing the hand of God in his works, fully compatible with the concept of an intelligent creator.

Deductive reasoning fails if you feed false information into it, and you've already shown you understand very little about the universe. There is no historical evidence of anything from the bible. Logic also fails if you feed it false premises. Philosophy doesn't work because you can't think something into existence. Personal experience is useless to me or anyone else, and you can't distinguish it from a delusion if you can't how it to anyone else. Faith is the biggest load of crap ever.

Got anything real?

No black holes, no super massive stars, no heavy elements generated by those stars, no planets and therefore no life. Come on think about this.

And an all powerful, intelligent creator god couldn't come up with a less destructive means of creation? I mean, according to you he was just popping things into existence, why not just skip the black hole stage?

God didn't have to micromanage every last single atom he just had to calculate a universe with the exact perfect balance required for life and then he ran the program.

So, your perfect balance is perfect in the sense that it's currently completely imperfect? It's perfect in the one way you could not possibly know that it's perfect, because you don't know about how the universe was formed any more than anyone else does?

So it's perfect in the sense of a lie?

Yes it's perfectly balanced, life would not ever have had existed in the first place had anything been even remotely adjusted.

First of all, you're probably wrong. But even if you were right, all you've proven is that life as we know it couldn't have survived, not all life at all.

We know as a fact we can simulate what would have happened. And no life wouldn't have evolved anyway but "been different" it would not exist, stars would not exist, planets would not exist, nothing but some kind formless chaos or a super massive black hole the size of the universe.

How the fuck would you know?

University graduate level.

Ah ha yeah, not going to get away with that. What's your degree? Because I'm pretty sure universities give theology degrees too.

It was the creation of our universe. I'm not saying there isn't anything else besides our universe, quite the opposite really. You're the one saying this physical universe here is literally all there is and it somehow generates itself or something. The logic of a universe without a creator is balls.

If you keep telling me what I believe instead of asking me about it, I'm just going to call you a liar and move on. You are being dishonest; don't you care?

Is that what Jesus would want for you?