What Was Before ' the Beginning '....?

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There's no evidence, and hence no reason to believe.

Look at the vast complexity of the universe, of life and exact level of precise perfect natural balance required to achieve this level of development. You think this was random unintentional chance? Come get a bit serious here. I'm not even going into all the other different kinds of evidence you're ignoring on sight.

Yes - look at it. 70% dark matter, 30% dark energy just under 1% is everything we can see (stars, planets etc.) 100 billion galaxies, 100 billion stars per galaxy, 10^23 stars in total. All created 13.72 billion years ago.

Earth - 4.5 billion years old, life 4.0 billion years old. Man 200,000 years old (at most).

And you think God made all this for us? Doesn't that make him, like, the worst designer imaginable? How inefficient can he be? And yet - there is efficiency in evolution, re-using of genetic codes and materials, whilst, there is huge inefficiency, lots of junk DNA.

Sure looks like a natural process to me - almost as if it all evolved under natural selection.

You keep saying there could be no evidence, and therefore the god you believe in has absolutely no reason to believe in him. You dug this hole yourself.

Yes there is evidence it's all around you hidden in plain sight. You don't want to see what you don't want to see that's whats happening here.

See above - its too easy to allocate complexity to some grand design of plan. There is just no evidence of such.

Assuming that you're going to define god by those rigid characteristics alone.

That God is you may as well define the shape of the Earth as a cube than define him as something that is not the creator of the universe. You just wouldn't be factually right if you define it differently. Yes there is some flexibility in the specifics say monotheism, trintarianism, panentheism, monism or whatever.

You haven't provided an answer as to why he couldn't be the creator of our universe but a janitor in his own.

So if it's beyond our understanding, what possible justification could you have for believing that it's god?

Deductive reasoning, historical evidence, logic, philosophy, personal experience and faith. Science is neutral but personally I see revealing the hand of God in his works, fully compatible with the concept of an intelligent creator.

We see what we want to in the main. You see design. I see explicable processes with remaining questions.

Just because you assert that, doesn't make it so. How many black holes do we have, tearing into the universe and destroying everything in their path?

No black holes, no super massive stars, no heavy elements generated by those stars, no planets and therefore no life. Come on think about this.

You think. You are using completely opposing arguments to support your case. One minute we have a God that can create an entire universe from nothing. The next he needs complex processes (that happen to look entirely like natural processes) to make us - something he is supposed to have done by picking up an handful of dust. Picking and choosing bits of science you understand is actually undermining your case. Either stick to magic or embrace all the science.

How many uninhabitable worlds, separated by immense distances of nothingness suffused with radiation? How many tiny particles of space debris that, simply due to the laws of physics, become deadly missiles before they hit something?

God didn't have to micromanage every last single atom he just had to calculate a universe with the exact perfect balance required for life and then he ran the program.

Hard to imagine he could have done a worse job then. Look how inefficient the whole thing is if the target is us. 98% of all the species that ever lived have gone extinct over a 4 billion year history just to come up with us 200,000 years ago.

When you demand that we see all this as "perfectly balanced" you're just being a toddler. The more we learn about the universe, the more nonsensical, complex and dangerous it becomes.

Yes it's perfectly balanced, life would not ever have had existed in the first place had anything been even remotely adjusted. We know as a fact we can simulate what would have happened. And no life wouldn't have evolved anyway but "been different" it would not exist, stars would not exist, planets would not exist, nothing but some kind formless chaos or a super massive black hole the size of the universe.

Oh its supposition time. If the universe had been different any life it created would have been different - not non-existent - you are just assuming that. Different means different. It could have been massless and energy based. We have no idea. You do not know any more than I do.

Oh, and incidentally, what kind of science education do you have?

University graduate level.

No, we know there was a point at which the universe as we know it came into existence. That's not a creation, in any sense of the word.

It was the creation of our universe. I'm not saying there isn't anything else besides our universe, quite the opposite really. You're the one saying this physical universe here is literally all there is and it somehow generates itself or something. The logic of a universe without a creator is balls.

Nice to see how well you have grasped the opposing argument.

Yawn, more bare assertions with nothing to support them.

Christians believe in God, Muslims believe in God, Jews believe in God, Hindus believe in God (different version but it still counts), Baha'i believe in God, Sikhs believe in God, Native Americans believe in God, they all believe in God the creator and purpose of all life. Jainism and Buddhism are technically non-theist religions but that only means they believe God to be irrelevant to personal salvation/enlightenment which has to be done yourself not through God.

Yes - there is a genetic tendency of humanity to allocate reason and intelligent forces to things where there are none.