What Was Before ' the Beginning '....?

[Sword of Christ]

There is so much wrong with this. First of all, you're committing an argument from ignorance and and argument from personal incredulity: your inability to figure this stuff out doesn't mean your simpleton's answer is the correct one.

You're the one who ignorant and providing the simpleton non-answer that the universe just exists because it created itself and was perfect for complex life by blind luck. Get serious here, you know you're wrong. At least deep down somewhere you must have some concerns about what you actually believe in face of the everything to contrary.

Secondly, as I've told you multiple times, asserting that everything is in perfect balance just means you're lying

For fucks sake it just is you don't need to assert that it is you just look at it. You don't have to learn much science to know this. A lot of scientists do actually manage to ignore this but a lot of them are serious hardcore fundamentalist materialists or they just don't think outside the box.

because the actual facts detail a universe that is amazingly chaotic and random.

Yet we can study and perfectly well understand it all, there is a lot to understand because it is perfectly well ordered, structured and can be figured out. This is because an intelligent mind created the thing not a blind purposeless force. Look how the universe developed and expanded over time, look at everything that formed and was produced. See the sheer amount of stuff that had to go on before the first ever form of life could be formed in the first bit of primordial ooze anywhere. That is not a blind chaos.

Precise mathematical structures.



Mathematical Structure.

http://www.le.ac.uk/ph/faulkes/web/images/onion.jpg

Mathematical structures.

http://nunsthorpecommunity.org/wp-conten...rth-1-.jpg

Moar structure.



Mathematical structures.



Mathematical structures.



Mathematical structures.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18f8gyjy...xlarge.jpg

Mathematical structures, really very serious complex structure. The universe itself was finely crafted to create this ultimate product, that's you yourself right there.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...atures.jpg

Precise and structured cosmological formation over time. An orderly sequence and chain of events.



Look at all this damn you! See and believe!



Do you see this? Life, complexity, a process of formation over time!



Come on, bollocks was this all this coincidental or a byproduct of a blind force! A product of a supreme consciousness this was, it's clear enough to see.

Thirdly, your continued recourse to "random, unintentional chance" is similarly dishonest, because there's more than just chance involved: each and every development in the universe is scaffolded by those developments that have come before

Exactly, you understand this so why are calling it a random unintentional chaos?

, consequences flowing from one state of matter to another. All of those developments are supported by the predictable ways in which the laws of physics function.

YES!

You see you do understand what I mean.

To characterize this as random just shows how little you actually understand the universe you claim to know the secrets of.

No you're trying to say it's a random chaos, and then you turn around and say it's orderly, structured and understandable. Of course it is, God created it the flaming thing!

I'm serious: you know next to nothing about science, all the while claiming to know everything.

I know as much as yourself but I'm coming to honest conclusion here not trying to pass it off as "random chaos" then claiming it's understandable and predictable!

It's just embarrassing.

You embarrass yourself with your half arsed double standards and denial of the reality of God more like. The structure of the universe is only half the issue don't get say the objectivity of morality and the nature of good and evil and freewill.

Uh huh, which is why you didn't present any beyond your own ignorance, and instead went to the standard, dishonest god wad trick of jut reinterpreting my motivations. Grow the fuck up, you damn child.

No no you are the child here who needs to grow the fuck up and accept the truth that God does exist. The truth is all around you and you yourself demonstrated that you actually understand it. You're just being dishonest with yourself and applying double standards. Predictable pure random chaos is it? Yes contradict yourself.

I... I just don't really care. Define god however you want, it doesn't get you any closer to demonstrating it.

Demonstrate it to yourself by opening your eyes and actually looking. The truth is the truth and you go where the evidence takes you it doesn't matter if you don't like the truth or you find it uncomfortable.

Deductive reasoning fails if you feed false information into it, and you've already shown you understand very little about the universe.

No I haven't shown a lack of understanding of the universe it's you who are showing a lack of understanding with your double standard arguments.

There is no historical evidence of anything from the bible.

The people, places and historical events are true. Visions, prophecies, miracles or whatever are contentious issues yes and will have to be taken on faith, but there is a good case that the resurrection occurred. Even if it didn't you still don't get to deny the existence of God. At least without a decent argument that doesn't apply a double standard.

Logic also fails if you feed it false premises. Philosophy doesn't work because you can't think something into existence.

You can come to the truth with a little bit of thought, the ancient Greek philosophers did this and generally the consensus was that there is an uncreated first cause. It's just common sense you need faith for this.

Personal experience is useless to me or anyone else

You only say because you don't have any, or you think you don't have any. You lack/deny the experience because you're claiming God is a myth/delusion.

, and you can't distinguish it from a delusion if you can't how it to anyone else. Faith is the biggest load of crap ever

No atheism is the biggest load of crap ever. Atheism is the delusion not theism, God is real and the arguments for his existence are rock solid.

Got anything real?

The universe God himself created is real enough as is the conscious experience of existence we have of it and the conscious experience billions of people have of what lays behind it all. Though no doubt you want to deny the whole of reality as some kind of myth or delusion you may as well.

And an all powerful, intelligent creator god couldn't come up with a less destructive means of creation?

Yes if you don't want to have freewill or biological physical life.

I mean, according to you he was just popping things into existence, why not just skip the black hole stage?

I'm sure he didn't just "pop something into existence" it will be more complicated than that. Possibly a series of emanations and dimensions of different layers of space and time or whatever, we don't fucking know. Black holes are a result of the law of gravity having to be the way it has to be, it's a vital ingredient and it had to be very precisely exactly as it is there wasn't room for error.

So, your perfect balance is perfect in the sense that it's currently completely imperfect? It's perfect in the one way you could not possibly know that it's perfect, because you don't know about how the universe was formed any more than anyone else does?

The physical laws of the universe can be adjusted and run on computer simulations so we know how precise it has to be. It had be 100% exactly as it is. Perfect mathematical design and structure right the way through, an orderly sequence of construction.

So it's perfect in the sense of a lie?

Perfect as in perfect for the formation of utterly complex biological beings. No margin for error. The universe was made intentionally for this very purpose and this intentional purpose giver is God. You don't go around around denying his existence or the works of his hands. You have you biological father here on Earth who made your physical body and your heavenly father who made your eternal soul.

First of all, you're probably wrong. But even if you were right, all you've proven is that life as we know it couldn't have survived, not all life at all.

Biological life could not exist had the universe been any different and we know this is true. Yes God could have created something entirely different and he did, there are other realities than our current experience of the physical universe.

How the fuck would you know?

Because I have read book about this, the precise balance of the natural laws required for life is scientifically factually true. This isn't open to debate it's just how it is.

Ah ha yeah, not going to get away with that. What's your degree? Because I'm pretty sure universities give theology degrees too.

Environmental Biology but that has nothing to do with this issue.

If you keep telling me what I believe instead of asking me about it, I'm just going to call you a liar and move on. You are being dishonest; don't you care?

I know atheism as a belief is all about and it's just plain wrong, even if Christianity is wrong atheism is still wrong. I'm explaining why it's wrong.

Is that what Jesus would want for you?

Jesus was a religious kind of a guy you know. I think he may had a bit of a belief in God there, I just get that impression that he may have agreed with me on the God issue. So yes he would want that for me and he would want that for as well. Least you can do if he died for your sins?