(November 8, 2013 at 12:21 pm)Zazzy Wrote: There are certainly areas of cultural bias against men- we agreed on several of them.
If you see this cultural bias as tilting toward men in such a way that they are a fundamentally oppressed group, you seem to be unaware of the world I live in. Who is oppressing all these men- sending them to war, causing them to work in mines, etc. Women? I don't think so. If you are oppressed, then you are oppressing yourselves. This is not women against men.
This has never been women against men, I have never made that claim. I have not been trying to argue for who carries the blame of male oppression, just that there is male oppression. But again that you think that that is the point I am trying to make is indicative of part of the problem I am talking about. I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just trying to show you the thought process being made here. I have never once blamed the problems men have on woman at all in any of my posts. But because I am saying that men aren't afforded certain rights equal to those of women, it is immediately thought that I am somehow trying to blame women or devalue the rights and progress that they have made. I want women to be afforded their human rights as well as men.
The oppression of women was and is not as simple as just men oppressing women. Women oppressed other women as well, hell even today there are women that are pro-life and believe that it is a woman's duty to serve her husband and raise the children. And we have a similar scenario with men. I'm not blaming you for it, I'm just asking that you recognize it and help us rather than remaining ignorant to the problems we face.
Each culture has adopted gender roles that we end up blindly following and blindly expect from the opposite. One of our biggest problems as men when it comes to our gender role, is that our lives are considered expendable in comparison to women. Like I mentioned previously 99% of casualties of war since the start of civilization have been men and the United States conscription policy still requires that only men register. That is a huge inequality, and an oppressive policy. It is a "men only" specific rule that directly effects our survival. World War II was not just a holocaust for Jews it was a holocaust for men as well. Pretty much every war is a holocaust for men. We go to kill other men and be killed by other men. But it is not thought of in those terms. Because after all, men go to war.
(November 8, 2013 at 12:21 pm)Zazzy Wrote: So you don't like how I disagreed with you. Your experience is so alien that I'm not sure we can see eye to eye. I didn't call you delusional, however.
I have no problem if you disagree with me. I got thick skin, I can take it. What I didn't like was that this is what I wrote:
And this was the response I received:
I gave you key examples of inequality towards men and without giving any reasons to do so, you dismissed it. If you want to disagree with me by all means do so, but do not fail to back up your response and call me asinine for it.
(November 8, 2013 at 12:21 pm)Zazzy Wrote: I see that you don't like me saying you're full of it. I am not saying you can't express yourself. I'm saying you can't always expect to express yourself without some pushback, especially when you seem to be claiming that women as a group are oppressing men as a group- which IS an asinine claim.
Again disagree with me on whatever grounds you wish I am fine with that, but do not put words in my mouth. I dare you or anyone to go through the posts I have made on this thread and find where I said that women are oppressing men or that women are to blame for the oppression of men. If you can find such a claim that I have made, I will immediately concede. But if not, then stop acting as if I am.
(November 8, 2013 at 12:21 pm)Zazzy Wrote: And you're dead wrong (although I appreciate your confining this to Western culture). Are men less oppressive than they used to be? Yes, and they're far more enlightened in the educated areas of the US. But if you're saying that men don't oppress women anymore, or that women have turned the tables and now oppress men, you're just wrong. Women should NOT turn a blind eye to inequities in media portrayals, or reproductive issues, or war issues. But they are not responsible for these as a group systematically trying to keep men down.
The average man does not keep a woman down anymore. Like I said, there are still a few assholes out there and yes, some of them may be in positions of power. But your run of the mill Joe Everyman is compassionate to the rights and thoughts of women.
And again I would like to point out, this is the third time in your post that you have alluded to me believing that women are keeping men down.
This is not a women oppressing men argument, this a gender roles argument.
(November 8, 2013 at 12:21 pm)Zazzy Wrote: But it's not a competition anyway. Areas of inequality don't have to be equal in numbers to be wrong. 1 in 6 boys sexually assaulted is not as many as 1 in 4 girls, but it's still way too fucking many. And a vanishingly small percentage of those assaults are by women. MEN are abusing boys and men, as they abuse girls and women. MEN send men to war. MEN are predominantly judges who favor women in court decisions (30% of judges are women). Physician, heal thyself.
Do you seriously realize how close minded that statement is? I understand that quite a few of the problems men face are in fact perpetuated by men, but real change cannot take place until the whole of society recognizes the problem and acts together. Women could not rise like they did by themselves, it required the help of everyone, men included. And now men face difficulty when it comes to certain rights and cultural attitudes and we also need the help of everyone, women included. Are you really going to turn your back on us?
(November 8, 2013 at 12:21 pm)Zazzy Wrote: Again, part of any movement like this is learning how your own group is participating in its own subjection and rejecting those tendencies- like bra-burning.
Then what are you arguing with the MRM for? This is exactly what they are doing!
(November 8, 2013 at 12:21 pm)Zazzy Wrote: Instead of bitching about how oppressive women are, think about how to fight the real oppressors in our world: culturally ingrained stereotypes set by a patriarchy that has no place in a modern culture that strives for equity, and people themselves who participate in and prop up these stereotypes, partly because it suits them, and partly because they're brainwashed. All of us do this, and all of us have a responsibility to re-educate ourselves and others around us.
This is the fourth time in this post that I have been told that I think women are oppressing men. I feel like I am repeating myself over and over again. I am not anti-woman. I am not anti-feminism. I am simply advocating for my rights and the rights of other men.
The section I bolded is exactly what I am trying to accomplish. Which brings me to the root of the problem that I have been trying to address with you. All I have been arguing for, is that just like there are ways in which women are slighted there are ways that men are slighted as well. I am not trying to say women are the reason for that or even that we have more problems then women. Just that we got problems too.
And I made a challenge earlier that anyone could look through my previous posts and try and find any response I made where I blamed women. And you will not find that post because it does not exist. So then why am I being labeled four times as someone that blames women? Because like I stated in my first post on this thread, if a man advocates for his rights or speaks his mind on any inequality he feels that he faces, our society dictates that he must then hate women. That is one of those stereotypes that you were talking about, that has been ingrained on to society's psyche.
