(November 16, 2013 at 10:53 am)Zazzy Wrote: Max, I don't think you can argue someone out of a personal experience. It's sort of an argument stopper, because we can't tell theists what they feel or should feel. My response to the "personal experience" theistic argument is to end the conversation, because there's nowhere to go from there.
Of course, when one is attempting to legislate or repress based on a personal experience with god, it's time to say that this is not a good reason to force your ideas on others. But as a matter of conversation about theism and personal feelings, I think it's insulting to tell others that their experiences are invalid.
And for that matter, one thing I agree on with Sam Harris is that profoundly spiritual experiences are real neurological events. You can experience them on certain drugs, or by tweaking brain chemistry in other ways. They feel real, and they ARE real. Are they real because god was in your mind, or because you have been engaged in self-hypnotic meditation? The theist and the atheist will disagree, but the personal experience itself is probably a real thing.
Very much this.
A better question is why would you want to argue someone out of personal experience.
IF they are trying to represent their experience as evidence of reality, the flaw is not in the experience but in the extrapolation beyond it. The experience is true, the inferences drawn by it are not.
If they are not then why would you want to argue someone out of their experience? Presumably it's a good one, why spoil it for them if I decide to get high by dropping some acid, covering myself in honey and dancing around my living room naked, that's my business. If I get high by going somewhere quiet and indulging in psychological rituals which give me a sense of a divine and loving presence, also my business. I may tell you about how great the acid is, or how great the faith is. You're free to tell me it's not your bag. But you can't tell me either thing does not work or is not real, the effect IS real.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken."
Sith code
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken."
Sith code