Theists, are you immune to being decieved?

[pocaracas]

Let's clock it: start clock at 23:38

Sadly, today, I don't have the half hour to reply point by point.

Wow, it only takes you a half hour? It usually takes me longer than that.

Must be because you answer a lot of people!

Regularity in Nature is observed. We observe that there's something that consistently exhibits the same behavior, so we've named these things. Cataloged them and now use the catalog when we refer to them.

Yes, I am aware of that. However, I want to know what is causing these regularities. Simply observing that they exist does not explain why they exist.

We may never know...

Gods, on the other hand, we can't observe...

True enough statement.

You say it yourself, "the god of the bible"... not necessarily the real god, if such a thing exists... but the one described by the bible.

Well the only real god is the one of the Bible.

Just because the description you find on the bible fits with your perceived view of reality?
The description you find in the qur'an also fits with many people's perceived view of reality... how do you account for that? Are they all wrong?
What sort of god relies on people's writing abilities to pass on the message? yours and theirs!

It's not something we can observe. We can only trust in the contents of that bible and accept it... or not. Sadly, for the bible, there are many other such books, some describing similar gods (jews' yahweh, muslim's allah), some describing very different gods (hindu vedas, egyptian book of the dead...).

Sure, but believing in something unseen can still be justified belief. Only Yahweh has revealed characteristics and promises that can explain the regularities we see in Nature. Secondly, even if we could not pin it down to which god we are dealing with, that does not justify believing that no god exists. At the very least you and I should be discussing which god we believe it is rather than whether a god even exists or not.

I thought we were way over that "belief that no god exists" thing...
If there is a god that is in fact responsible for the regularity in Nature, then I want to know about it. I refuse to believe in the story written down thousands of years ago... nor any other of the countless similar stories.

And it doesn't need to be seen... I've never seen an electron, but I've seen its effects... and they are predictable and... well... regular.
Now, this god thing... any effect you claim for it, we can attribute it to something else. The regularity detail, the cause of the big bang and a few other gaps in our knowledge are... under investigation. Until then, it does no good to assume that a thousands year old story has the correct answer.

So, if trust is to be put on one of them, then how to decide in which?

What you will find is that Yahweh is completely unique from other conceptual gods and when you infer what the necessary attributes must be of a god you end up with Him.

necessary attributes?
Talk to a muslim... talk to Rayaan... I wish you both luck, as you'll be claiming the same things for each other's god.

I'd go with observation... but none of the gods described is the sort that actually shows up for scrutiny...
That leaves trust none as the most honest position available.

I keep trying to observe gravity, but alas it never shows up for scrutiny either.

It does behave in a coherent and predictable fashion, does it not?
Like electrons and all other elementary particles that have been cataloged.

Now, your god.... only shows up in the story...

So, how do I account for the regularity in Nature? What causes this regularity? Why is it regular?
I don't know.

Well I commend you for honesty. Genesis 8 tells us that it is Yahweh, and that makes perfect sense to me.

Well, it doesn't make so much sense to me...
You see... how did the person who wrote that know about it? If that person could come to know it, then we can all come by this information, coherently and consistently... Sadly, reality shows the opposite... you yourself rely on the story to describe the god thing... you yourself have failed to find the real evidence... you just trust that whoever wrote the book had it.

And if there was ever a person who knew about it, then I want to arrive at that knowledge, in an unbiased way... you see... the human brain is way too vulnerable to biases... and pre-acquired beliefs don't help a thing.

I think we first need to establish that there is an underlying reason for such regularity. There may not be.

There has to be a reason for it.

Perhaps...
Perhaps it's not the one you think.
Just because it makes sense, doesn't mean it's the right answer.

Think "Centrifugal Force".

String theory seems to be a step towards accomplishing that goal... let's wait and see how that turns out.

You seem to have undermined your objections above by now claiming to have faith in a rather ad hoc theory that is utterly unobservable and untestable.

I have no faith in string theory...
There are hundreds of string theories... all untreatable... all lacking in testability.

I used string theory as an alternate hypothesis, which requires no god and explains everything... in a coherent and consistent fashion.
I wonder why these words keep popping up....?

Until then, I see no reason to trust your favorite book of mythology... nor any other, for that matter.

Even though it has answers to questions that you admittedly cannot answer?

I doesn't explain how to arrive at those answers, making it useless.
It's no better than saying that the Flying Spaghetti monster explains all the wrong things with pasta.

Merry christmas, stat!

I hope you had a great one! I certainly did.

Did so, indeed!

End clock at 00:08---- 30 minutes!