From atheism to Christianity? How so?

[agapelove]

Numbers and signs. That has confirmation bias written all over it. So this convinced you that it wasn't just god, it was the god of the bible? That's it? Come on, the bible talks about thousands of things and the fact that you see a lot of 3s makes all of them true?

Well, I already believed in God at that point. That was why the signs were important, which is that I felt like God was telling me a very fundamental and important truth about Himself which I didn't understand until I read the bible. That didn't tell me the whole bible was true but that at least some of it was true, enough for me to convert and give Jesus a chance to show me who He is.

Let me tell you something, my grandparents are buddhists. Not the hippie type, the other type. And my grandfather had a dream where guanying (one of the ones they pray to) came and gave him lottery numbers. He bought the numbers and won.

The reason none of these are good enough evidence is because plenty of these things have happened to people of other religions which sucked them deeper into their religions. The obvious conclusion, and also the one that assumes the least, is that all of these are coincidences. You cannot conclude that all gods are real because that is not evidence of gods' existences, and that is assuming way too much. For those who conclude that, well that did not happen to me, therefore it's irrelevant to the my truth; they are just ignoring evidence and pretending that something like god's existence is a personal thing, it isn't, it should be a universal truth.

In the Christian perspective, it is not just God who gives signs to people. I received many lying signs which I thought were from God which led me to believe in my new age version of God. So, it's not that I believe that people who believe in other Gods are confused, but they are being actively deceived. That they have good reasons to believe what they believe (as far as they are aware).

Another question, if you don't mind. I understand how you were convinced of god's existence. What convinced you to worship him? I cannot really think of anything that can convince me to worship someone unless with the threat of hell

Something that seems universal among atheists is an awe and wonder at the grandeur, the majestic beauty of the cosmos. The complex unity of creation, from the macro to the micro, is so wonderful and mysterious, isn't it? I think this is where the spirituality of atheists most comes into play. Now, considering all of that, maybe you can see that I feel the same way about the Universe but that I attribute it to God. When I am in awe of the wonder of it all, I am in awe of Him. When I see the beauty of a flower, I see His heart. When I marvel at the animals, their good humor and innocence, their connection to the ecosystem, I see His joy and His genius. I could go on but I think you get the picture. I find it very easy to worship the God who created this Universe because the Creation itself testifies to how awesome He really is. That doesn't even begin to highlight what I feel about what Jesus has done for me.

God said He is seeking those who will worship Him in Spirit and in truth. What that means is that you worship Him from your heart. You couldn't truly worship God out of fear, but it is right to have an awe and reverance and respect for Him. As you get to know God your heart will change because you will know His love, even in the greatest adversity, He is there.

That's a part of my question, but the rest of it was, why pray at all, given that prayer has only a specifically religious purpose and I'd have no reason to do it before I believe in the entity I'm praying to? See, if I were to pray right now and get no answer, the standard religious response is either that I wasn't doing it sincerely- which would be absolutely correct, because how can I sincerely talk to a being I don't think exists?- or that god's response isn't necessarily the one I expect, in which case, how could I be sure it was a response from god at all?

When scientists form theories, they don't know if their theories are correct. I have seen a quote by a scientist which says that the greatest mettle for a scientist is patience because 99 percent of theory turns out to be wrong. They may spend many years working entirely in the dark before they get any results. They are testing the waters, so to speak. It's the same thing with prayer. You don't know if God is there, and the one thing you've heard that works is prayer; better to try it than to leave it untried. What you know about prayer is that it is said to be how we communicate with God. So, if you have even the slightest inkling to find out whether there is a God, the best way to do that would be to pray. You could not pray entirely sincerely, no, and you might not see any reply initially, but what the scripture guarantees is this; if you want to know if Jesus is real, and you ask for that information, that door will open for you. That is the promise: knock, and it will be opened for you. When you see it you will recognize it for what it is, but if you don't want to walk through it that is your choice.

I'm going to be really very polite and not swear like I usually would, but this is actually dead wrong; from a historical perspective we can't even confirm that Jesus existed, let alone said any of the things he said, but even ignoring that, much of what Jesus was purported to have said was said by others that predate him.

I appreciate it. I am open to correction but it is my understanding that the concensus even among atheist bible scholars is that Jesus did exist. Even Richard Dawkins admitted that Jesus existed. The vast majority of what Jesus said was utterly unique. A good example of something Jesus taught on which was already well known is the golden rule, but you'll find the roots of that in the Old Testament.

But there's another important thing you're missing, which is that the majority of the world is not Christian, and therefore their historical perspectives don't factor him into it at all. Even accepting your premise, the influence of Christ isn't as widespread as you'd like us to believe.

Well, if you study the history of western civilization it is married to Christianity, and that is what has shaped the world for the last 2000 years. 1/3 of the worlds population claims to be Christian so that would be a majority in the sense that it is greater than any other group.

Here's a study: performed by a religious organization, this study shows that prayer has no more efficacy than chance, and in fact makes people worse off when they know they're being prayed for.

I'm not sure why anyone believes that a study about prayer would prove something when God is the one who controls the results.

Um, really? You're going to end on Pascal's Wager? Okay, lemme get out my debunking kit...

So, first of all, there isn't no risk: just in terms of material consequences, you've wasted time in church, money on tithing, mental energy thinking about something that doesn't exist, and possibly more, depending on the stripe of christian you are. In terms of the other risks, you're also risking infinite punishment if one of the other religions turns out to be the right one and you've been praying to the wrong god. Just saying.

I'm not invoking Pascals Wager because I think that has to do with becoming a Christian, doesn't it? I just said pray, not convert. Taking a minute to pray has no consequences at all.

Most other theists (who answered the question) responded similarly, and I probably would have when I was a believer. Though the responses usually are along the lines of "he couldn't really have failed." The situation brings up some important questions that I think the believer has to ask himself.

Did god rig the game? Jesus became flesh so that he could trade one perfect human life for another (the one that Adam lost). He became flesh that he might better understand our frailty (per Paul's writing). So if he knew he would not give in to temptation, then there was no risk of failure as there is for a frail human, and god played a game of Russian Roulette where he knew there was no round in the chamber.

And that's actually the better option, since the other option would be to risk failure and the possible consequences if Jesus had transgressed even once. With the only hope of salvation lost, humanity would face a future of despair, with no hope of ever recovering the gifts given by god and lost by Adam before any of us had a chance to make the choice ourselves. At this point, what does god do? Wipe everything out? He would need to acknowledge that creation was not "good" and that he had gotten it wrong and that Satan may have been right!

Think about it. Why bother to set up that scenario? It either risked failure, which put the fate of all creation on a roll of the dice. Or it could not have failed at all, in which case it was an exercise in pure vanity, god reminding us that there was still one being in the universe who couldn't screw up something as simple as "do this, don't do this." None of those options gives us god as we envision him if we are a believer. Not easy to reconcile without handwaving or admitting that there's a lot we can't know about the situation until such time as god clears it up, if he ever chooses to.

Well, the scripture says Jesus is the lamb slain *before* the foundation of the world. Which means that God already knew what would happen before He created anything, so He prepared a Savior beforehand. We see in Genesis 3 that God gave the prophecy of the one coming from the line of Adam who would crush the head of the serpent. As far as God was concerned, the future is set in stone, so there was no risk per say. That isn't to say that Jesus wasn't tempted, but that God knew that Jesus would overcome every single temptation.

And you must be ready to receive said revelation.. Though that does not seem to apply to the Saul to Paul type of conversion.

I think God gives everyone their appointed times. He knows exactly where we're at and when the best time is to open the door, and what the things are that we need to get us to that point. He didn't choose to reveal practically anything to me until I was in my late 20s. Why that is, I couldn't say, beyond that I would the experience that I do so I can relate to those in the same position as I was.

Seriously? Pascal's Wager?

No wonder you're a believer if you use arguments as flawed as Pascal's Wager.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like that. I know many of you have probably struggled with this over a number of years. I also didn't invoke Pascals Wager as far as I know, because that involves conversion doesn't it? What I said had no risk was simply to pray and ask for the information.

You act like none of us tried what you claim will get us answers.

Been there, done that.

Every single time I've told a Christian that I did try, I ALWAYS get the same responses, "you weren't sincere enough", "You didn't try long enough", "he did communicate with you, you just weren't ready to hear". etc, etc.

As soon as you can tell me how to differentiate between your claims and gullibility, let me know.

As soon as you can tell me how to differentiate between your claims that Jesus will answer me and the same claims made by many other religions regarding their gods, let me know.

If you asked whether Jesus is there, I believe He will show you that He is. If He hasn't already, He will at some point. It's impossible for us to differentiate between the claims of different religions unless God reveals Himself to us. You might even think you know God when you don't, as was my experience. What I believe is that God will give everyone a real chance to know Him, and this has been my experience.

Why the Jews did not understand matters not, what matters is that they didn't understand and that Jesus came up with those twisted phrases trying to fit their understanding.

For the last part, Jesus was in the mind of God and before he was born, God appointed him prophet of the nations! You remember what God told Jeremiah? What did God tell Jeremiah? I KNEW YOU! Before you entered your mother's womb.

So Jesus was glorified in the mind of God, God is energy...ok check, we were all in the mind of God before being born. I was in the mind of God, you were in the mind of God, Jesus was in the mind of God, Hitler was in the mind of God. Before being born, everyone bound by the spirit of God were in the mind of God and after they were born they were? SONS of God.

Where's the problem?

Actually, God is Spirit. The problem is that you're ignoring all of the scriptures, and there are many, which say that Jesus preexisted the world, one of which we discussed in John 1:1. Whether you think he is the God or a God the fact is that it places Him before the beginning of creation. We also have scriptures which show Him to be the Creator:

Colossians 1

16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

So, your interpretation that Jesus was in the mind of God doesn't fit the testimony of scripture, or even in its own context.