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Theists, are you immune to being decieved?
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved?
(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
(December 27, 2013 at 7:57 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: You exhaust me, Statler. Can't you have a conversation without addressing every single point made? I mean would you break down someones speech in such a way during normal face to face conversation?
I ask, because I like you and I'd really like to talk to you, but you literally daunt me into boredom!

I like you too. However, if a person does not want multiple points addressed then why would they try and make multiple points in their post? If I think something is in error, merely interesting, humorous, or something I agree with then I am going to remark upon it. If I did not do this, I’d have people on here whining about how I ignored their point. You know that’d happen! Tongue
Every now and then, I need to reset this mega-quote post with you. Tongue
(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
(December 27, 2013 at 8:38 pm)pocaracas Wrote: You need to work better on these quotes... I don't remember what that was about... but I'll work with your reply.

Did I mess the quotes up? I am not seeing that.
No, that's not it... could you keep the quote from two posts ago, like I do. Just to keep track of the conversation without having to scroll up to that post... our posts do tend to be huge, so it's a bit of a pain to look through them to find what we want.

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: Now, you tell me that the sun's temperature is one million degrees celsius.
It is an answer to "how hot is the sun?"... it sort of makes sense... it should be very hot.
Is it the correct answer? 100 years ago, I wouldn't know. So I would ask you "how did you arrive at that answer?".

As you can see, an inquisitive mind wants to know the whole process.... not just the answer.... the answer, while making sense, may be inaccurate... and there are many many many wrong answers... and only one right one.
Without the process of arriving at the correct answer, I am not going to accept any answer that may fit my perception...

Let me use your same analogy because I like it. Now what if I told you 100 years ago that the Sun was 5,778K and when you asked me how I knew that I told you that He who made the Sun, knows everything, and cannot lie told everyone that was the answer. Would you still have reason to doubt my answer was correct?
Of course I'd doubt that!
How did you meet this... person?
How do you know "he" knows everything?
How do you know "he" cannot lie?
"He" told everyone? Then why was that information unavailable before you said it?

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: Do you mind elaborating on that "necessary view of reality" and which "things [...] must be true in order for us to learn about the exterior world" and how "the bible makes sense of all there things"?

Sure, there are certain things that must be assumed to be true before we can learn anything about our exterior world. A few examples would be: regularity (past, present, and future) in Natural laws, Universal laws of deduction, the reliability of one’s own memory, and the reliability of one’s own senses. In a universe created by the Christian God not only can we assume that all of these things are true but this assumption also makes perfect sense because these things would be true in any such universe. Now, contrast that with a purely material and unguided universe and we have problems. Yes, we have to assume these things are true, but it really is very unlikely that they would be true in such a universe. This is why the act of denying God’s existence actually undermines our ability to know anything for certain.
"unlikely"? are you going for the fine tuning argument?

You don't know that an "unguided" universe would run into such problems...

And "the reliability of one's memory and senses"? really? I've never been under the influence of mind altering chemicals, but I hear they can mess up both those abilities... and then some more... and some people have trouble with them without resorting to such chemicals.

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: Allah is the arabic word for "god". They just insist on using the arabic work to distinguish from any other god... particularly the jew and christian yahweh.... but, down deep, it's the same god. "the one true god".., I read that the qur'an has hundreds of ways to describe that god... I'm sure somewhere in that pot it also accounts for everything in Nature, regularity included.

No, it’s not the same god, they have different attributes. Allah transcends logic and therefore is not required to behave logically, Yahweh behaves logically because it derives from His character and so on.
Well, I've seen christians who claim their god transcends logic, too...
That just makes the god you claim to exist not to be exactly the christian god... it's your christian god.

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: Still, I couldn't help notice you didn't answer the question...

The question about why God chose to preserve scripture that way? That’s a purely theological question that requires speculation. It’s a very effective way of preserving the text however. Within even 100 years of Christ’s death it was impossible to destroy all of the Christian manuscripts because there were so many of them and they had spread so widely. If there was one single authoritative manuscript it would have been easy for an enemy of the Church to destroy it. If I wanted to ensure that my words lived on I would write thousands of copies of the same letter and send them all over in much the same way.
No, the question about why god chose to use scripture in the first place. The same medium that allah chose... the same medium that shiva chose... the same medium that Ra&co. chose... writing by human hands.
It's almost like they are all equally man-made...



(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: Because I'm fully aware of a lot of details in the inner working of the human brain, and human society, that can account for all that is believed about a god... and all that has been written about all gods.

So anyone who has written about a god is automatically delusional? That seems rather unfair.
Well, delusional is a bit much... but such wording has been used in the literature...
I'd go with biased, indoctrinated, ignorant... willingly erroneous.

The first people who came up with the story must have indeed been delusional.. the ones that follow it are just indoctrinated, or "experience" something they ignorantly fail to attribute to brain function... then there are those that build up on the original story... those would also be delusional. There are way too many people who suffer from such pathologies and can, for the most part, lead a completely normal life.


(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: No observable god, more than half the human population not convinced of the existence of that particular god.

I do not see how that is relevant.
The god that requires belief fails to communicate with the majority of the world's population? fully relevant!
Oh... but all other gods also require belief... it's almost like they are all the same thing... the same man-made thing...

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: Because it relies on belief? No tangible evidence for anything.
Because it may be one of the infinite wrong answers? provided the lack of support and evidence, it does have a damn good chance of being wrong.

I think this could all be used to reject any belief that a person did not want to believe. I do not see how that makes such a rejection rational.
All god ever described by man are equally guilty of this, yes...
Sorry Stat, I disbelieve all gods equally, so I tend to lump them all in the same bag.... the bag of man-made myth.

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: Oh, silly me...
Again, you believe in that... you don't know that. There's a difference there, you agree?

Well knowledge is usually defined as justified belief, and it seems I have justification for those beliefs.
yeah... but your justification is not convincing... perhaps it is to you, but it should be to the nobel prize committee Wink

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: But... what if... what if... what was written wasn't true?
The description of the god wasn't true. Then, "who cannot tell a lie" isn't exactly like that...
The account of Moses wasn't true. Then... "the one who knows everything and made everything" isn't exactly like that...

Then all knowledge would be impossible.
LOL.
I know my nick is pocaracas. I also know quite a lot of other things which don't require me to believe in something prior to knowing them.

The DNA example you used somewhere was a good one. When it was discovered, the methodology of how to arrive at it was also described. Others have corroborated that methodology. We could corroborate it. We'd just need to do what's described. And, what's more, when you read it, you're not required to believe in it. You just read the description and do it.

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: The story... is just a story to entertain children..

It’s hardly a child-friendly story now is it?
Some bits are more like "law of the land"... man-made law. So those bits would be directed at adults... the rest.. meh.

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: One more reason not to assume that the story is correct.

Surely, that possibility has crossed your mind, no?

Sure, until I figured out that it has to be true.
nuh-huh!

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: Indeed and they all describe exactly all the steps they took to arrive at their destination.
While your story presupposes the existence of a god. No where is it stated how to determine the nature of this god, in an unbiased, non-psycho-fallacious way.

And how do you know that they indeed took those steps? Eventually you’re going to have to just take their word for it.
Yes, I take their word for it... And I'm also fully aware that I too can take those steps and arrive at the same information.
Now, your story... many people have taken the same steps and arrived at nothing...
Many people follow a different story and arrive at something that's written in that other book... how does that work?!

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: My standard aims to remove such fallacies that arise in the human brain.

I am unaware of any such fallacy, does it have a name?

Many names... allow me to quote something apo (rasetsu) once posted

(January 12, 2013 at 3:30 pm)rasetsu Wrote: From Wikipedia, a list of over 150 common mental 'flaws' that you may have as a result of being human.

Quote:Decision-making, belief and behavioral biases




Social biases




Memory errors and biases




(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: In a 20-D space live a race of entities.
They are born, live, and die, much like us. They breed by matching 4 entities' "genetic" material to produce one offspring. These kids grow, go to their schools, do homework, college... work, etc.
One of these kids had a Uni assignment: to build a 3+1D universe with regularity that could be self sustainable.... so he did. And, being a perfectionist, decided to kick-start the whole thing in such a manner as to spark sentient life in a few corners of this universe.

There you go. Now tell me how this story is flawed and misses the whole regularity detail....

Well for one you never even mentioned regularities so I am not following how it explains those. Secondly, how do you know any of this? What’s your source of revelation? How does this account for future regularity? Lastly, it does not seem like this explanation can explain our moral imperatives.
How do I know any of this, indeed...
What's my source of the information, indeed...

How does it account for past and future regularity and morality? Come one, the kid I mentioned is a good student... he got an A+ for this work... now, would you want to know about his classmates' projects? Wink


(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: String theory aims to describe everything as strings, and different vibrations of these strings represent different particles... So the strings explain the regularity.
What ensures that the strings remain regular?
They just do. (that's a period)

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: It does have a high likelihood of being the incorrect answer, remember?

I am not following that. I also do not believe people reason this way at all.

A: “How did you get to my house?”
B: “I drove.”
A: “I did not see you drive up.”
B: “Well I did.”
A: “Well there are many possible ways you could have gotten here, and yet only one correct way therefore it is far more likely that you did not actually drive here therefore I do not believe you and you are a liar.”
B: “I am driving back to work now and taking the pizza you ordered with me sir.”
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, remember that?

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: yes, I know... nothing is analogous to yahweh...

Bingo.
Sarcasm got lost without the appropriate tag... Tongue

(December 27, 2013 at 9:45 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Quote: dammit, I forgot to time this... oh well, doesn't matter... half an hour, or so... Tongue

Seemed like 10 minutes! I went and got something to drink and came back and you had already responded. Tongue

You drink too slow! Tongue
Reply



Messages In This Thread
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Lion IRC - November 18, 2013 at 6:08 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Violet - December 19, 2013 at 5:47 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Lion IRC - November 18, 2013 at 5:22 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by feeling - December 3, 2013 at 9:42 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Lion IRC - December 3, 2013 at 8:55 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by MitchBenn - November 20, 2013 at 9:40 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Lion IRC - November 20, 2013 at 11:06 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - November 20, 2013 at 11:08 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Silver - November 18, 2013 at 5:22 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Silver - November 18, 2013 at 11:41 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Silver - November 18, 2013 at 11:53 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Silver - November 19, 2013 at 10:19 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Godschild - November 19, 2013 at 4:42 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Silver - November 20, 2013 at 9:26 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - November 20, 2013 at 9:30 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Lion IRC - November 19, 2013 at 6:11 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Zazzy - November 19, 2013 at 10:48 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Lion IRC - November 20, 2013 at 1:02 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Lion IRC - November 20, 2013 at 2:10 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Lion IRC - November 19, 2013 at 9:30 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - November 20, 2013 at 7:59 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - November 20, 2013 at 9:43 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - November 21, 2013 at 1:44 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - November 22, 2013 at 10:40 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Bad Wolf - November 26, 2013 at 6:33 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - November 27, 2013 at 6:00 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - November 27, 2013 at 7:56 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - November 28, 2013 at 12:38 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - December 2, 2013 at 9:39 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Nineteen - November 27, 2013 at 8:56 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by pocaracas - November 27, 2013 at 8:07 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - December 2, 2013 at 11:48 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - December 3, 2013 at 2:02 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - December 3, 2013 at 9:29 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Bad Wolf - December 3, 2013 at 8:30 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Bad Wolf - December 3, 2013 at 8:34 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Zazzy - December 3, 2013 at 8:47 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Silver - December 3, 2013 at 8:54 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Zazzy - December 3, 2013 at 8:57 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Silver - December 3, 2013 at 8:59 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Zazzy - December 3, 2013 at 9:30 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Zazzy - December 4, 2013 at 8:45 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Bad Wolf - December 3, 2013 at 8:57 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Lion IRC - December 4, 2013 at 1:55 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Bad Wolf - December 4, 2013 at 11:22 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - December 4, 2013 at 8:53 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Medi - December 14, 2013 at 1:46 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by pocaracas - December 18, 2013 at 6:19 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by feeling - December 18, 2013 at 6:32 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - December 19, 2013 at 2:09 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Angrboda - December 19, 2013 at 4:17 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by feeling - December 19, 2013 at 11:33 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Esquilax - December 19, 2013 at 2:05 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by pocaracas - December 19, 2013 at 4:08 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Tonus - December 26, 2013 at 4:00 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Violet - December 19, 2013 at 6:20 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Violet - December 19, 2013 at 6:53 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Violet - December 19, 2013 at 7:53 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Angrboda - December 20, 2013 at 12:02 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by pocaracas - December 24, 2013 at 8:39 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Angrboda - December 26, 2013 at 6:38 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by pocaracas - December 26, 2013 at 8:08 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by pocaracas - December 27, 2013 at 8:38 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Angrboda - December 24, 2013 at 5:33 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by LastPoet - December 26, 2013 at 6:55 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Mystical - December 27, 2013 at 7:57 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Tonus - December 27, 2013 at 7:59 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Mystical - December 27, 2013 at 9:01 pm
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by pocaracas - December 28, 2013 at 6:35 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Mystical - January 18, 2014 at 8:54 am
RE: Theists, are you immune to being decieved? - by Fruity - February 6, 2014 at 7:43 pm

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