(March 1, 2010 at 3:49 pm)Thor Wrote:(March 1, 2010 at 2:36 pm)Tsidkenu Wrote:(March 1, 2010 at 10:38 am)Thor Wrote: We have evidence that the universe began to expand at some point. The universe itself has always existed. It did not have a "cause".
absolute assertions request proves. do you have any ?
There is no reason to think that the universe hasn't always existed in some form. What reason do you have to think that the universe came into being magically? You think there was no universe at all and then, suddenly, POOF! it came into existence?
I can see that this will be a see-saw of who made the positive claim.
I'd argue that the Big Bang is a credible theory, and based on that, it is possible to posit that before that, time did not exist, therefore there was nothing "before". The universe could have existed in a timeless state and did not require a creator. The laws of nature apply in this universe with respect to time. If time was not applicable, why would the current laws of nature be?
Saying there must have been a cause is like saying "I am building a wall with small bricks, therefore the wall must be small". What is applicable here is not necessarily true of the entirety of existence. The kalam argument does have many fallacious holes in it, as it substitutes and assumes the role of God, but does not give an account for why he is there or why he is subject to nature of his own.