(April 6, 2014 at 2:01 am)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:I did before I posted. Among scholars there is often some degree of disagreement and/or skepticism. Quoting: "Although the exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear[12]," and "there is broad consensus as to what the original text of the Testimonium by Josephus would have looked like.[9]" Those two quotes should be enough to determine what Josephus said about Jesus. My contention is not that Josephus spoke of Jesus as the Christ, but rather spoke of Him from a historical perspective. It is my understanding that is not in question.(April 6, 2014 at 1:33 am)orangebox21 Wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_JesusRead paragraph two and then please, tell us what you can authoritatively tell us about Josephus' Jesus from TF with a straight face.
(April 6, 2014 at 2:17 am)Minimalist Wrote: Josephus was a Pharisaic jew and the idea that he would call some dirty little hippie preacher "moshiach" ( which translates to the Greek Christos ) is simply stupid. He was from a priestly family and his general opinion of those who caused trouble was that they were rightly killed.My response was to the poster's contention that there is no corroboration that Jesus lived (historically speaking). I do not propose that Josephus would have been 'believing in Jesus as the Christ.' Many, maybe most, Jews reject Jesus as the Christ even to this day. Josephus' opinion of Jesus is not the issue, but rather that He lived.
Oddly.... disastrously so, to jesus freaks.... in Book 1, Chapter 47 of Origen's Contra Celsus we get this little tidbit:
Quote:For in the 18th book of his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus bears witness to John as having been a Baptist, and as promising purification to those who underwent the rite. Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ,So, Origen, living some 75 years before Eusebius of Caesarea correctly identifies Book XVIII of Antiquities, correctly notes the JtheB passage but somehow manages to miss the supposed reference to your godboy.
Now, genius. How do you suppose that happened?
(April 6, 2014 at 9:06 am)Esquilax Wrote:I think you missed my point. There are some things that in order to prove you have to believe in them first. The proof of an absolute involves initial faith/presupposition(s)/assumtion(s).(April 6, 2014 at 1:33 am)orangebox21 Wrote: Do you have any proof that 2+2=4 outside of math?That's a really stupid line of reasoning, as we can observe math working by doing it, we can observe evolution occurring live, and we can find many, many concepts for which the law of non-contradiction applies, and none for which it does not.
Do you have any proof of evolution outside of science?
Do you have any proof of the law of non-contradiction outside of the laws of logic?
(April 6, 2014 at 9:06 am)Esquilax Wrote: On the other hand, nobody has ever, ever been able to confirm any of the miraculous claims in the bible,
Except the witnesses at the time, who's record remains.
(April 6, 2014 at 9:06 am)Esquilax Wrote: and we know that the majority of them could not have happened.How do we know that?
(April 6, 2014 at 9:06 am)Esquilax Wrote: If this is the comparison you want to be making, then my next question will be: what observations can you make about the bible to confirm it to be true?I observe it working by doing it, I observe people's lives changing because of it, and I observe many concepts of life within the words of the book.
(April 7, 2014 at 12:40 pm)tokutter Wrote:I'm stating that given the text, that is what we know for sure. In other words what is not speculation but rather derived from the text is what we know for sure.(March 31, 2014 at 2:23 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: We can't say for sure. The Bible doesn't always give us the details for every question. What we do know for sure (taken from reading below/the text): Tombs were opened by an earthquake when Jesus died. Many bodies of dead saints were raised from the dead. They came out of their graves after Christ was resurrected. They went into Jerusalem and appeared to many people. They were alive.It's the ......... "What we do know for sure" ...............part that makes it art.
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?