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(April 9, 2014 at 1:11 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: I did before I posted. Among scholars there is often some degree of disagreement and/or skepticism. Quoting: "Although the exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear[12]," and "there is broad consensus as to what the original text of the Testimonium by Josephus would have looked like.[9]" Those two quotes should be enough to determine what Josephus said about Jesus. My contention is not that Josephus spoke of Jesus as the Christ, but rather spoke of Him from a historical perspective. It is my understanding that is not in question.
Quote:One of the reasons the works of Josephus were copied and maintained by Christians was that his writings provided a good deal of information about a number of figures mentioned in the New Testament, and the background to events such as the death of James during a gap in Roman governing authority.[14] Because manuscript transmission was done by hand-copying, typically by monastic scribes, almost all ancient texts have been subject to both accidental and deliberate alterations, emendations (called interpolation) or elisions. It is both the lack of any original corroborating manuscript source outside the Christian tradition as well as the practice of Christian interpolation that has led to the scholarly debate regarding the authenticity of Josephus' references to Jesus in his work. Although there is no doubt that most (but not all[69]) of the later copies of the Antiquities contained references to Jesus and John the Baptist, it cannot be definitively shown that these were original to Josephus writings, and were not instead added later by Christian interpolators. Much of the scholarly work concerning the references to Jesus in Josephus has thus concentrated on close textual analysis of the Josephan corpus to determine the degree to which the language, as preserved in both early Christian quotations and the later transmissions, should be considered authentic.
Not definitive, but up for debate, nonetheless.
Given your provided information I would agree it's up for debate. Especially when considering that within a common source we find:
"Although there is no doubt that most (but not all[69]) of the later copies of the Antiquities contained references to Jesus and John the Baptist, it cannot be definitively shown that these were original to Josephus writings, and were not instead added later by Christian interpolators. "
and
"there is broad consensus as to what the original text of the Testimonium by Josephus would have looked like.[9]
I would like to ask the historical experts: "Which is it?" Do we know what the original text is or not? According to the article it's both. Then each individual could simply choose the quote that supports their own claim and both would be "right" (though contradictive) in saying so.
(April 9, 2014 at 3:17 pm)Chas Wrote:
(April 9, 2014 at 1:11 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: I'm stating that given the text, that is what we know for sure. In other words what is not speculation but rather derived from the text is what we know for sure.
We know no such thing. We do know that the text was written long after the events, we know that it is not reliable, we know that eyewitness accounts are unreliable, etc.
So, no, we don't know any of that story for sure. Only the gullible and uncritical and delusional say they do.
Again, you misunderstand. While I do believe the text to be true, I am not at this time arguing for the truth of the text. For the sake of this discussion we are assuming the truth of the text. If we didn't assume the text there would be no question to ask, there wouldn't be any so-called 'Matthew's Zombies' to discuss. So, assuming the text, 'what we know for sure' is equal to 'what we can conclude from the text without speculation'.
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists... and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible... would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
