Literal belief in the flood story

[Rampant.A.I.]

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So... the earth wasn't covered in water, then somehow enough water came through "heaven's windows" and "erupted from the earth" to cover it, and... it all went away? Where'd it go? It's either somewhere, or it's gone. Given what we learned about the water cycle as 13-year-olds, that water is either somewhere, or God must have magicked it away.

Which is it?

It's all still here, why would you think it went anywhere? Deeper oceans and inland seas could easily contain the water. No magic needed.

Then why did you bring it up in the first place, surely you mentioned it for a purpose.

I brought it up because I think it's apt. I was dropping it because I don't feel like debateing water salinity with you on a pseudoscientific level. There's a big difference between a freshwater river dumping water into the ocean and fresh water falling from the sky all over the earth, mixing with the oceans.

At best, you're making stuff up, and I don't feel like arguing hypothetical fish survival with someone who thinks that the flood was scientific.

A scientific flood, that's a new one. Remember you are purposing the flood was real and in doing so you can't just throw out part of the story to fit what you want. The waters of the deep burst forth, much more fresh water than even the Amazon could put into the ocean over many years and this occurred in only a few days.

You should read the scriptures closer, the raven went first and flew here and there till the earth dried up. This is an unspecified amount of time, but by a little math we can see it was around 4 months. Noah was on the ark 1 year and 10 days according to the time given in the scriptures. So from the 7th month till the 2 month of the following year the plants had time to grow and trees sprout leaves soon after they sprout through the earth, no magic just as things were set up.

Perhaps you should read it closer. You're making an assumption. There is no mention that Noah waited to send the dove. The wording implies they were sent at the same time, but for a different purpose.

Genesis 8:6-9

The wording looks like he did those both at the end of the 40 days. I suppose it's possible he waited an indeterminate amount of time. I mean, it's not like the Bible is known for being worded very well, but given the very specific time line of four or five events just in that chapter alone, it seems odd that they would just leave that part out. Going based on the precedence of the rest of Genesis 8 (Event 1 happened after X days, event 2 happened after Y days, etc...), I think it's fair to assume they were simultaneous.

Even still, even if they were sent separately, the dove found no where to land at that point. Then, somehow, it found a tree with leaves seven days later.

Genesis 8:10-11

So, there you have it: conditions went from the dove finding "no rest for the sole of her foot" to her finding an olive leave seven days later.

Your time line would not allow for the 1 year and 10 days Noah was on the ark, you'll have to reconsider your time line. Also the Bible is worded just fine, the Hebrew doesn't translate into the English as well as we would like. You have to go to the Hebrew at times, I'll make this point shortly.

Verse 7 above tells us that Noah sent the raven and it went out going and returning until the water was dried up from upon the earth.
The underlined are the literal translations from the Hebrew. The raven flew every day and returned each evening until the flood waters had dried from the earth (planet).

Verse 8 in the NAS translation which is considered the most literally accurate, starts the verse with the word "then" which would mean the dove was only released after the water had dried up from the planet. Verse 8 also says that the dove was sent out to find dry land, Noah already knew the flood waters had abated the planet. The land would have been to muddy to release the animals upon, Noah wasn't a stupid man. You see I have studied the scriptures for many many years and I pay attention to the wording quite closely. I do not think you can even come close to assuming a simultaneous release.

The dove was sent out 7 days after it's first flight and returned with a fig leaf, like I said before, when a tree sprouts it doesn't take long before it starts putting on leaves. If there was a tree already growing when the dove was released the first time, why would it have had find the tree at that time. I'm not arguing the 7 day period when the dove found the leaf, I'm establishing a time line from what is written for plants having enough time to start growing without God using His powers to reboot the earth.

The waters had receded before the dove was released, the ground had not dried up enough for the animals to move around but the plants had began to grow. From the time the dove brought back the leaf and Noah left the ark was nearly 2 months, you should study the scriptures instead of picking through the net for random facts, you might find more truth than you think.

Olive trees grow under water?

Why would I read a book of Hebrew mythology to find out facts? You should study observable reality instead of cherry picking "facts" to support your view of one particular culture's mythology. You might find more truth than you think.

I did not say olive trees start growing under water, I've plainly gave a time line to allow for the plants to get started as the water receded. You are leaving out months of time to defend your position which is not appropriate. You are the on who purposed the story to be true for the argument, now that you can't defend your position you are reverting to calling the story myth, which you can't prove either.

No magic or extra powers, the meat had began to rot and most was probably gone, but you do know animals eat rotted meat all the time, they still don't have refrigerators to this day.

Okay, lets go back to the time line...

40 days of rain + 150 days of floating around + 40 days of waiting on the mountain + 7 days of waiting for an olive leaf = 237 days. That's almost eight months.

Are you seriously telling me that modern animals eat carrion that is eight months old? It would have long-since rotted. You should think your apologetics out a little better before presenting them.

Now your jumping on the time line I established to defend your position and you still got it wrong, Noah and the animals were on the ark for 1 year and 10 days. What makes you believe all the animals died the first day or even the first week or first month and the fish were dying all along the way. Okay city boy animals will eat an animal well actually the bone marrow months after an animal dies, marrow actually provides a lot of nutrition. I've seen animals pick up dried up fish of the bank of lakes and at them, just because these things would make your delicate stomach turn over doesn't mean it will effect the animals. I'm the one think out these things, you on the other hand are countering with unworthy ideas.

With the amount of dead animals and fish lying around I doubt the predators would expend energy chasing prey and who knows the extinction of some animals may have been part of God's plan. You must be a city boy so I'll go into more detail here, there would have been plenty of extremely shallow seas and lakes where the carnivores could have fresh meat from the fish in them and plenty of rivers for them to take food from. No magic and no extra powers needed. Like I said the design of prey reproducing much faster than predators and plants out producing
herbivores by a great percentage everything would be in balance.

Even if the carrion still existed (magic!), then the two deer would be procreating and the two wolves would be procreating, and... your ratios are still off. Noah would have needed something like sixty deer, which he didn't have. That, or you'd have to assert that the deer are reproducing at a much faster rate than normal. Magic?

Rabbits, squirrels, mice, rats, snakes, lizards, raccoons, moles, beavers, do I need to continue. The fish in the rivers, lakes, ponds and shallow seas would sustain many animals. I stated this previously did you miss it.

What disease, man lived long lives what makes you believe animals would be any different during Noah's day. Like I said God created genetic diversity into the animals and man to survive such an event and continue on into the future. An Omniscient being is not going to miss the finer details.

I don't think you're grasping that when a species has little genetic divertisity, how susecptible to diesease it is. If every species was cut down to two or seven members, they would be horribly vulnerable. Here, educate yourself. Without genetic diversity, the species risks extinction.

Now, assuming you don't believe in evolution, here are commercial farmers talking about the same thing, because it's demonstrably true.

Now, it's possible all of those species survived this fragile time period. Especially if God protected them (with magic!).

No magic needed, and yes I do understand I raise and breed rottweilers, this breed was brought back from just 19 dogs and are going strong for over a hundred years. Yes they have some problems and like the corn you mentioned are being watched over by man. Now tell me how do you know how much genetic diversity was in these animals. I do not believe in evolution, I trust in the power of an omnipotent God.

How do you know that a flood of such enormity would not help in moving continents? We do not have any way to test that.

How do you know it would? Sounds like you're making things up.

There's far more to this than these pages allow, it has to do with the waters of the deep and the space they left, this comes from studying science you would ignore completely because it goes against your evolutionary beliefs. I have rejected evolution after studying it, I gave it a chance.

What makes you think the flood could not have left these fragile rock formations and what evidence do you have that those trees could not have survived the flood, like I said earlier the highest mountains were only 22.5 feet below the water not nearly deep enough to keep out sunlight. Then maybe God did use His powers on a few things, what a great way to disguise a world wide flood.

So wait... the flood's power created cannons and moved continents, and it... preserved fragile rock structures?

Huh.

Who says the flood had to be totally destructive every place on earth. How is it these fragile rock formations have survived the millions of years of earth quakes you believe in.

Yeah, God could have done whatever He wanted to, but He didn't. God chose this way and guess what, being God He didn't need your permission nor your fallible thoughts to carry out His plan. God being able to see into the future knew what was best for these children.

Well, that's my point. Have fun worshiping your willful child-murdering monster-god.

In the end if you find yourself in hell I bet you will s what God did as a good thing.

We are here to make our choice where we want to spend eternity, with God or separated from Him and through Christ God has given us each a way to choose.

Too bad he sets the bar at belief and then goes into hiding and removes all evidence that he exists!



TL;DR: You're using make-believe pseudoscience to prove that the flood was scientific (for reasons that are beyond me, given that you undoubtedly believe that God used magic to create Adam from dust) and you're creepily okay with God killing children.

Faith is where it starts and then belief, you need to study scripture if you're going to argue against it.

The flood has reasonable explanations when one use common sense, and actually thinks through the possibilities, but for those who ignore searching out the possibilities find only doubts.

GC

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Re: "All the flood water's still here":

Apr 19, 2014 - The current volume of the Earth's oceans combined is estimated at only 1.3 billion cubic kilometres.

To flood the entire planet would have required

4.5 billion cubic kilometers of water

So no. It's not "still here."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Global_flood

Re: The flood has reasonable explanations when one use common sense, and actually thinks through the possibilities, but for those who ignore searching out the possibilities find only doubts.