(May 13, 2014 at 10:43 pm)eyemixer Wrote:(May 13, 2014 at 10:00 pm)Godschild Wrote:
How do you know my position on public prayer? I have not stated it so you are making a total assumption based on I know not what. Please do not state my beliefs based solely on your unfounded opinion, it is very disrespectful.
I've not found any atheist on this site that approves of public prayer, so I guess it's just habit to lump others in with the rest. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful, it did seem you had an aversion to public prayer by the verse you used.
Quote:I asked a question. Once you assumed I am opposed to public prayers you decided that I was trying to 'use scripture against Christians who understand it's meaning.' That again is an incorrect assumption on your part.
Why, the verse does not apply to Christians who are sincere in their belief, it applies to the ones who use prayer in arrogance. Most Christians in public offices want God's guidance in their decisions, so they can make a better world for everyone. I'm not going to say you probably do not believe what I just stated, I'm asking you? If you use a verse and do not give an explanation sometimes all that's left is to assume, based on the verse used.
Quote:I asked the question because I understood the verse to be a fairly explicit condemnation of prayer as spectacle. Both grandparents on my father's side were Ministers in the Episcopalian faith and my Grandfather led a parish near Shreveport, Louisiana for decades.
Since you understand the verse why did you use it, it doesn't fit this with this particular discussion in my opinion. Christian leaders have be praying for two hundred years for guidance from God, it's just be recently that practice has come under fire by a minority of people. They didn't use pray before to make a spectacle, or at least most did not, so I was thinking you thought they were now.
Quote:I discussed this passage with them, as one of the many we discussed over the years, and the position they seemed to take was that prayer should be as personal as a community observance can be. They frowned on public displays but felt houses of worship were fine since they allowed a sense of community spirit. They emphasized modesty in both decor and manner however and kept the focus on the Word and the people.
I see prayer as invoking the power of God for a purpose and if those who lead and are Christians believe the same, then why not ask God in public for His help. Christ said, we were not to hide our beliefs, we are suppose to stand up for our beliefs. Your grandparents and I differ on this, it's our rights as citizens and Christians.
Quote:This was the opinion I got from actual Christians, so if you do not feel this is a correct interpretation I am happy to discuss why you think that is the case. I may change my mind on what the intent of the verse is. I may not, it depends on what you have to say on the matter, but 'get on track' and 'against Christians who understand its meaning' don't really advance a discussion any.
The verse has little to do with prayer itself, it is about those who would arrogantly use prayer to promote their own selves. Self promotion and arrogance are not a part of Christian life and this is the point Christ was making. The reason for this passage goes all the way back to the fall of man when Adam and Eve decided that the self was more important than God's Word. This great sin by them has been a focus point throughout scripture, God ask us to trust because He has our best interest at heart, He wants to take care of us and for that to happen we must die to self as Paul said. God's not asking us to be puppets, He's asking for our faithful trust. So as I see things, public prayer has a place in this country, we are showing our faithful trust in God to help us.
Quote:If you are willing to explain your interpretation of the verse so I can understand what it is, and why you feel it is a better interpretation, please do so.
From Can I post links yet Mods?
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when you pray, be not like the pretenders who like to stand in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets to pray, that they may be seen by the children of men, and truly I say to you, they have received their reward.
I have stated my opinion on what the verse means, in context of public prayer. I understand that there are two groups in play, those being addressed and the 'pretenders' and there can be a whole discussion about 'pretenders'. I am willing to have that discussion as well if you want.
EDIT: We can examine the passage from any biblical source your prefer, I have no axe to grind in that regard.
I have no problem with most versions of scripture, some seem to be less accurate in their accounts, I do usually like to stay with the main versions because most are widely accepted, I personally like the NASV because of it's more literal tendencies. I do however use three to four versions to help in study and will call on those I know who have a good grasp on the Greek and Hebrew. I do not use the King James any more, the old English is not my thing and we have learned more about the ancient languages since the King James translation.
If you want to discuss the pretenders I will be glad to, start where ever you want to and we can go from there. One thing though many here will want to get involved, I will only respond to you unless thy have a valid question or statement. It can get confusing trying to answer several people.
Thanks for the good discussion and sorry for the assumptions I'll try to refrain from old habits I've formed here.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
