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Literal belief in the flood story
RE: Literal belief in the flood story
(May 22, 2014 at 12:20 am)orangebox21 Wrote: I can see that being a problematic question. To clarify a bit. The qualities themselves were not affected by the fall but rather our ability to utilize them. For example, rationale and logic are a trait of the image of God that we were made in, but because of the fall we don't always, and I would argue we don't naturally, think logically or rationally. I'm not proposing this as an answer to your problem, just trying to define terms so to speak.
This is an example of the problem I was referring to, I think. The Bible itself gives only a few scattered details as to how humanity was degraded by imperfection. We know that they would grow old and suffer pain and sickness and eventually die, and there is the implication of a lack of self-discipline and control, but that's about it. The rest is conjecture. We're forced to fill in a lot of large gaps, IMO. The JWs were one of the groups that believed that mankind is only using about 10% of our true mental capabilities, but that doesn't seem to have a Biblical basis.
orangebox21 Wrote:Regardless there are only two ways to make judgments about these moral issues. We either use the Bible as the authority or we use man(ourselves) as the authority (there could be a third possibility, any suggestions welcome)
I think it comes down to that, though the latter is probably not as simple. God is a recognized authority who can easily prove that he deserves to be our moral authority, or if necessary can 'make us an offer we cannot refuse' in regards to that authority. Individual men either must prove themselves or must con people into accepting their authority. I think man's ability to write down his experiences and learn from those experiences without having to repeat them is a major influence on our development of ethics, morals, and laws. By taking at least some (and I would think, nearly all) of the authority from individual men and putting it on centuries of human experience and experimentation, we have a more reliable guide, if not a more reliable authority.
orangebox21 Wrote:Are they teaching that this period of time would be from creation until the flood?
No, they base it on a longer timetable backed by what they call 'Biblical chronology' that considered that the seventh day of creation would last 6,000 years and end in our current day.
orangebox21 Wrote:So do JW's teach that the curse God placed upon mankind and the earth was not a consequence to their sin but rather an unwarranted change in the created order?
They consider it a consequence of their sin.
orangebox21 Wrote:Are you still talking about the period of time between creation and the flood here?
Yes.
orangebox21 Wrote:If I'm remembering correctly you have on at least a few occasions quoted JW theology. Is that the association you were involved with when you considered yourself a Christian?
Yes, I was raised as a JW and served as one for some 30-something years before becoming inactive and eventually becoming an atheist.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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Messages In This Thread
Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - April 4, 2014 at 8:08 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by KUSA - April 4, 2014 at 8:34 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Justtristo - April 14, 2014 at 4:13 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by SteelCurtain - April 4, 2014 at 8:35 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Cato - April 4, 2014 at 8:42 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by truthBtold - April 4, 2014 at 8:42 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Senshi - April 4, 2014 at 9:16 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by tor - April 4, 2014 at 9:32 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by AT7iLA - April 5, 2014 at 12:30 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Chas - April 5, 2014 at 12:32 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Zen Badger - April 5, 2014 at 2:41 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by LostLocke - April 5, 2014 at 11:59 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Alex K - April 5, 2014 at 1:30 am
Re: RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by KUSA - April 5, 2014 at 1:35 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by DarkHorse - April 5, 2014 at 3:27 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Zen Badger - April 5, 2014 at 3:32 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - April 5, 2014 at 7:50 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Celi - April 5, 2014 at 10:48 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Mystical - April 5, 2014 at 12:25 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by DarkHorse - April 5, 2014 at 3:07 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by hobie - April 16, 2014 at 1:56 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by DarkHorse - April 16, 2014 at 5:29 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - April 16, 2014 at 1:34 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Mystical - April 5, 2014 at 4:50 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by archangle - April 5, 2014 at 6:52 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by orangebox21 - April 6, 2014 at 2:38 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by truthBtold - April 6, 2014 at 9:07 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - April 6, 2014 at 9:23 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - April 6, 2014 at 1:45 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Minimalist - April 6, 2014 at 2:00 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by DarkHorse - April 6, 2014 at 3:05 am
Literal belief in the flood story - by Rampant.A.I. - April 6, 2014 at 3:10 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Mystical - April 6, 2014 at 11:48 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Mystical - April 6, 2014 at 2:20 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - April 6, 2014 at 5:34 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by The Valkyrie - April 6, 2014 at 5:43 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Mystical - April 6, 2014 at 7:41 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - April 6, 2014 at 9:52 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by orangebox21 - April 7, 2014 at 12:23 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by DarkHorse - April 7, 2014 at 4:11 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - April 7, 2014 at 5:05 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Faith No More - April 7, 2014 at 10:20 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - April 7, 2014 at 10:49 am
Literal belief in the flood story - by Rampant.A.I. - April 7, 2014 at 3:03 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by pocaracas - April 7, 2014 at 3:31 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Zen Badger - April 7, 2014 at 4:44 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by ManMachine - April 7, 2014 at 5:23 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by archangle - April 7, 2014 at 7:37 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by DarkHorse - April 7, 2014 at 9:53 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Minimalist - April 16, 2014 at 2:10 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Zen Badger - April 16, 2014 at 5:08 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Minimalist - April 16, 2014 at 11:41 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by orangebox21 - April 16, 2014 at 1:31 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by truthBtold - April 16, 2014 at 1:37 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - April 16, 2014 at 2:49 pm
Literal belief in the flood story - by Rampant.A.I. - April 16, 2014 at 2:07 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by truthBtold - April 16, 2014 at 2:21 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by zebo-the-fat - April 16, 2014 at 2:44 pm
Literal belief in the flood story - by Rampant.A.I. - April 16, 2014 at 2:52 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Simon Moon - April 16, 2014 at 2:54 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Minimalist - April 16, 2014 at 3:18 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Wyrd of Gawd - April 20, 2014 at 1:02 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by orangebox21 - April 21, 2014 at 11:31 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - April 22, 2014 at 12:21 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - April 22, 2014 at 10:10 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Darkstar - April 22, 2014 at 5:37 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Wyrd of Gawd - April 22, 2014 at 6:48 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by orangebox21 - April 30, 2014 at 1:25 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - April 30, 2014 at 8:39 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by orangebox21 - May 4, 2014 at 10:29 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Godschild - May 1, 2014 at 3:35 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - May 1, 2014 at 10:12 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Godschild - May 2, 2014 at 1:06 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Godschild - May 2, 2014 at 2:26 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by pocaracas - May 2, 2014 at 3:16 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Godschild - May 5, 2014 at 9:14 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - May 5, 2014 at 9:36 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Godschild - May 5, 2014 at 4:03 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - May 6, 2014 at 3:08 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - May 2, 2014 at 10:17 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Godschild - May 2, 2014 at 5:52 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Chas - May 3, 2014 at 2:38 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Chas - May 2, 2014 at 12:14 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by pocaracas - May 1, 2014 at 4:59 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Bad Wolf - May 2, 2014 at 5:32 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by pocaracas - May 2, 2014 at 5:53 am
Literal belief in the flood story - by Rampant.A.I. - May 2, 2014 at 2:29 pm
Literal belief in the flood story - by Rampant.A.I. - May 2, 2014 at 6:49 pm
Literal belief in the flood story - by Rampant.A.I. - May 2, 2014 at 10:46 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Godschild - May 5, 2014 at 4:32 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Tonus - May 7, 2014 at 9:58 am
Literal belief in the flood story - by Rampant.A.I. - May 5, 2014 at 4:11 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Bad Wolf - May 5, 2014 at 5:00 pm
Literal belief in the flood story - by Rampant.A.I. - May 5, 2014 at 5:59 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Godschild - May 7, 2014 at 7:15 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - May 7, 2014 at 11:38 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Hoopington - May 7, 2014 at 12:21 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - May 7, 2014 at 12:45 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Godschild - May 8, 2014 at 5:21 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - May 8, 2014 at 8:17 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Chas - May 8, 2014 at 9:09 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - May 7, 2014 at 7:29 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Jackalope - May 7, 2014 at 2:47 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Tonus - May 7, 2014 at 3:44 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by DarkHorse - May 8, 2014 at 2:39 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by DarkHorse - May 8, 2014 at 7:32 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by orangebox21 - May 13, 2014 at 12:22 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - May 13, 2014 at 1:17 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Tonus - May 13, 2014 at 5:49 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Hoopington - May 13, 2014 at 7:02 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - May 13, 2014 at 9:22 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by orangebox21 - May 13, 2014 at 4:26 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - May 13, 2014 at 4:30 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Tonus - May 14, 2014 at 6:19 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Hoopington - May 14, 2014 at 7:23 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Brakeman - May 14, 2014 at 7:45 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - May 19, 2014 at 9:00 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by orangebox21 - May 16, 2014 at 4:27 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - May 17, 2014 at 4:13 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Tonus - May 17, 2014 at 4:46 pm
Literal belief in the flood story - by Rampant.A.I. - May 16, 2014 at 4:44 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Chas - May 16, 2014 at 6:57 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by orangebox21 - May 18, 2014 at 1:07 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - May 18, 2014 at 1:29 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Tonus - May 18, 2014 at 6:31 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Minimalist - May 18, 2014 at 2:30 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Mystical - May 18, 2014 at 8:19 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Minimalist - May 18, 2014 at 11:08 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by orangebox21 - May 21, 2014 at 1:05 am
REqll: Literal belief in the flood story - by Mystical - May 21, 2014 at 3:00 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Esquilax - May 21, 2014 at 3:29 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Tonus - May 21, 2014 at 5:57 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - May 21, 2014 at 2:11 pm
Literal belief in the flood story - by Rampant.A.I. - May 21, 2014 at 1:10 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by orangebox21 - May 22, 2014 at 12:20 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Tonus - May 22, 2014 at 5:57 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by RobbyPants - May 22, 2014 at 12:09 pm
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by Mystical - May 22, 2014 at 12:32 am
RE: Literal belief in the flood story - by pocaracas - May 22, 2014 at 6:17 am

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