RE: Common self contradiction of the religious
June 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm
(This post was last modified: June 15, 2014 at 12:17 pm by Freedom of thought.)
(June 8, 2014 at 11:33 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: You certainly could assert that. Given that the universe now exists in a state of time, how did time come into existence?
Because time could be an emergent property of the universe. Most scientists think the 'arrow of time' is simply due to energy/entropy. Saying the universe existed in the 'timeless' state with all of its energy content, in which time emerged is consistent with everything we know. Sort of like Hawking's no boundary proposal, there are physical models like this. There is no point in time in which the universe came to be. Time had a beginning, but the universe didn't.
This is just one model though, there are many. I think the beginning/eternal concept doesn't matter. The universe can come to be without a cause having a beginning, or it could be eternal. I don't deny 99% of these scientific theories, because I don't have a bet on a gap in current physical models for a magic man to work. As a theist, you must be incredibly closed minded to all current cosmology, because it goes against all your beliefs about god creating the universe. But this type of bet against science failing is foolish, because science will win every time, as it has in the past.
(June 8, 2014 at 11:33 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by "Infinite." To say that God can do anything we can imagine is not Biblically supported. The Bible states He cannot lie, and He cannot deny Himself. I would also say that He couldn't cause Himself to not exist nor create a rock too heavy for himself to lift.
If you are saying god has infinite power (omnipotent), that means god is infinite, as with omniscience. If god is omniscient, he must have an infinite amount of knowledge if he is to be classified as an omnipotent being, due to the infinite amounts of quantum states, and the infinite amounts of digits of pi he must know in order to be all knowing. I never claimed god must be able to do something that is logically self contradictory, impossible, literally anything we can imagine, or against his own traits like lying.
(June 8, 2014 at 11:33 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: To address the infinities can't exist assertion: Who has made this claim? Please explain how infinities can't exist.
To address the 'universe existing without a cause' line of reasoning: you're not understanding the argument. Go back and read post #18.
You made this claim by saying the universe can't be infinite. If you are willing to grant an infinite god, there is no reason you can't grant an infinite universe. Unless you don't claim god is infinite, in that case this thing is just a being, not a 'god'.
(June 8, 2014 at 11:33 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: God created time and yet he transcends it (He is not held subject to it's properties) If I were to create a dinner plate I would transcend that dinner plate. Certainly the plate is not alive, yet I am. The plate cannot move yet I am able to. The plate cannot think nor reason yet I am able to do both. So just as I am able to transcend something I have created, so to God is able to transcend His.
How can a mind exist transcendent of space and time? Isn't time a requirement for a mind to be able to think? A timeless mind, is by its very nature non functional. If a mind exists transcendent of time, I hardly see how it would classify as a mind. A mind functions within time, one thought flows after another, I hardly see how a 'transcendent' mind would even work in the slightest. It seems to me, and incoherent concept. How could this kind of mind even do anything, like think, and let alone create a universe? How does a mind create a universe anyway, have any evidence of this process? Sounds incredibly far fetched to me.
(June 8, 2014 at 11:33 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The statement 'If God is timeless (then) He can't be old' is what is known as a hypothetical syllogism. It is a hypothetical statement assumed for the sake of determining what conclusions can be logically inferred if the statement is true.
Secondly in asking for scientific evidence to prove God you make a categorical mistake. Science is the study of the material world. God is spirit. How can the study of the material world explain a non-material entity? This would be like me asking you to prove that ultraviolet light exists by using only your eyes. Or, answer 2+2=? using colors. Not all light is detectable from the human eye, numbers are used to answer math questions and colors are used to answer the visible light spectrum questions.
If god makes no impact on the physical world, this being may as well not even exist to us. If god exists, and wants his presence known, we should be able to study the physical world and find evidence of his existence. And meanwhile not a shred of evidence is found for the existence of god in science, in fact most scientists are now atheists. No ones asking to 'observe' god, or something like that. As for the 'timelessness', we have no evidence minds can exist transcendent of a physical sub straight, let alone a WORKING mind transcendent of time. As for light, that doesn't exist transcendent of time, it works within it, light is only constant WITHIN time regardless of the observers frame of reference.
And if god really existed, why are you on here arguing for his existence? Why do you have to prove anything if this being exists? Why doesn't he prove it right now to all of us and end the debate? And even with the debate, the god side has zero evidence for it.